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Thread: Iberian Ancient DNA on the works

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    I wish that new Olalde paper on ancient Iberia would finally appear. It would make a nice pre-Christmas present. Today would have been nice, since it is St. Nicholas Day.
     


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  3. #342
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    Here is the abstract once again, posted over at Eurogenes.

    The genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the last 8000 years

    Olalde et al.

    The Iberian Peninsula, lying on the southwestern corner of Europe, provides an excellent opportunity to assess the final impact of population movements entering the continent from the east and to study prehistoric and historic connections with North Africa. Previous studies have addressed the population history of Iberia using ancient genomes, but the final steps leading to the formation of the modern Iberian gene pool during the last 4000 years remain largely unexplored. Here we report genome-wide data from 153 ancient individuals from Iberia, more than doubling the number of available genomes from this region and providing the most comprehensive genetic transect of any region in the world during the last 8000 years. We find that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers dated to the last centuries before the arrival of farmers showed an increased genetic affinity to central European hunter-gatherers, as compared to earlier individuals. During the third millennium BCE, Iberia received newcomers from south and north. The presence of one individual with a North African origin in central Iberia demonstrates early sporadic contacts across the strait of Gibraltar. Beginning ~2500 BCE, the arrival of individuals with steppe-related ancestry had a rapid and widespread genetic impact, with Bronze Age populations deriving ~40% of their autosomal ancestry and 100% of their Y-chromosomes from these migrants. During the later Iron Age, the first genome-wide data from ancient non-Indo-European speakers showed that they were similar to contemporaneous Indo-European speakers and derived most of their ancestry from the earlier Bronze Age substratum. With the exception of Basques, who remain broadly similar to Iron Age populations, during the last 2500 years Iberian populations were affected by additional gene-flow from the Central/Eastern Mediterranean region, probably associated to the Roman conquest, and from North Africa during the Moorish conquest but also in earlier periods, probably related to the Phoenician-Punic colonization of Southern Iberia.
    Reading that again, I noticed the passage used by Gaska to claim that Iron Age non-IE speakers were also R1b-P312. That may be the case, I don't know, but that is not actually what the passage says.

    During the later Iron Age, the first genome-wide data from ancient non-Indo-European speakers showed that they were similar to contemporaneous Indo-European speakers and derived most of their ancestry from the earlier Bronze Age substratum.
    Notice that it speaks not of y-dna but of "genome-wide data" and says later Iron Age non-IE speakers were similar to contemporaneous IE speakers in deriving most of their ancestry "from the earlier Bronze Age substratum". To me that says those non-IE speakers derived most of their ancestry from the substratum, i.e., the previous inhabits of Iberia, the Neolithic farmers. That is what the substratum would have consisted of. The steppe-derived R1b-P312 males would have comprised the superstratum, not the substratum. And that abstract tells us that genome-wide replacement was just 40%. So, even after the arrival of the steppe-derived P312 men, the Iberian genome was still 60% Iberian Neolithic farmer. If the Iron Age non-IEs were like contemporaneous IE speakers in that they derived most of their ancestry from the Bronze Age substratum, that says nothing about their y-chromosome types.

    So, we'll have to wait and see whether or not P312 was actually found in Iron Age non-IEs.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-07-2018 at 12:57 AM.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, not to disagree with Agamemnon - he knows far more about linguistics than I ever will - but Koch is a renowned Celticist. I wouldn't rush to pass judgment on his opinions on that subject.
    I remember discussing Koch's theory with Jean (G-d rest her soul) a couple of years ago. The conclusion was that at this stage in his career, Koch did not really care about endorsing controversial theories (and Celtic from the West definitely is controversial). That being said, I think the profile of the Bronze Age Portuguese and Iberian Beakers closest to the present-day Basque clearly suggests that they absorbed a fair amount of Steppe ancestry (and that therefore, R1b-DF27 is the most likely vector for that type of ancestry).

    Regarding Tartessian, I doubt it even qualifies as an IE language.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
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  7. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here is the abstract once again, posted over at Eurogenes.



    Reading that again, I noticed the passage used by Gaska to claim that Iron Age non-IE speakers were also R1b-P312. That may be the case, I don't know, but that is not actually what the passage says.



    Notice that it speaks not of y-dna but of "genome-wide data" and says later Iron Age non-IE speakers were similar to contemporaneous IE speakers in deriving most of their ancestry "from the earlier Bronze Age substratum". To me that says those non-IE speakers derived most of their ancestry from the substratum, i.e., the previous inhabits of Iberia, the Neolithic farmers. That is what the substratum would have consisted of. The steppe-derived R1b-P312 males would have comprised the superstratum, not the substratum. And that abstract tells us that genome-wide replacement was just 40%. So, even after the arrival of the steppe-derived P312 men, the Iberian genome was still 60% Iberian Neolithic farmer. If the Iron Age non-IEs were like contemporaneous IE speakers in that they derived most of their ancestry from the Bronze Age substratum, that says nothing about their y-chromosome types.

    So, we'll have to wait and see whether or not P312 was actually found in Iron Age non-IEs.
    If we are basing it literally off of what they wrote, then both Iron Age IE and non-IE groups both derive from the Early Bronze Age substratum which was 60% and 40% steppe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If we are basing it literally off of what they wrote, then both Iron Age IE and non-IE groups both derive from the Early Bronze Age substratum which was 60% and 40% steppe.
    That's right, and that is what I said. My point was that the passage says nothing about the non-IE y-chromosome types.

    Here's that part again:

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2
    If the Iron Age non-IEs were like contemporaneous IE speakers in that they derived most of their ancestry from the Bronze Age substratum, that says nothing about their y-chromosome types.
    Oh, and the abstract does not say both were 60/40 Neolithic Iberian/steppe dna. It says both groups derived most of their ancestry from the Bronze Age substratum. That could have been 60/40 in the IE speakers, with non-IEs having an even bigger proportion of substrate ancestry (i.e., Iberian Neolithic farmer).
    Last edited by rms2; 12-07-2018 at 01:57 AM.
     


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  11. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    Respect to the Phoenicians I only see some influence in Cádiz, Málaga, Cartagena, Ibiza and as Ruderico says, by male way, even one of the few skeletons recovered in ancient Carthage has turned out to have a mitochondrial haplogroup exclusive to Iberia.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880306/
    That sample is dated 6th century BCE, so it does not provide any information about migrations during the Neolithic or Bronze age. The subclade U5b2c1 is not exclusive to Iberia. U5b2c1 is found in modern populations throughout Europe, including Russia, and there are ancient U5b2c samples from Hungary dated at about 7000 years ago, and an ancient U5b2c1 sample from Germany dated at about 8600 years ago.

    I think you are generally over interpreting mtDNA results in this thread. The mtDNA mutation rate is slow, so mtDNA does not give good time resolution for population migrations during the last several thousand years. I also think we will need a much larger number of ancient full sequence mtDNA samples to be more confident about distributions of mtDNA haplogroups in ancient populations. There are some interesting speculations based on mtDNA, but ancient autosomal DNA will likely be much more useful for understanding migrations during and after the Neolithic.

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  13. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    I assume you mean half British by the standards at that time as the Isles haven’t stood still either : )
    Yes. I have no idea which name they gave to the Isles back then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Attachment 27552Attachment 27553

    Both of these maps depict the language situation in Iberia around 300 BC. At this point most of Iberia is Pre-Celtic/Celtic Speaking most likely thanks to DF27. You can see that to the West of the Pyrenees this area was a mix of Celtic/Aquitanian.
    If this is connected to the Tartessos thing, as far as I know they had been already replaced by the Turdetans. And in any case, in cultural terms they seem to be closer to Iberians than to their celtic / pre-celtic neighbours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    That sample is dated 6th century BCE, so it does not provide any information about migrations during the Neolithic or Bronze age. The subclade U5b2c1 is not exclusive to Iberia. U5b2c1 is found in modern populations throughout Europe, including Russia, and there are ancient U5b2c samples from Hungary dated at about 7000 years ago, and an ancient U5b2c1 sample from Germany dated at about 8600 years ago.

    I think you are generally over interpreting mtDNA results in this thread. The mtDNA mutation rate is slow, so mtDNA does not give good time resolution for population migrations during the last several thousand years. I also think we will need a much larger number of ancient full sequence mtDNA samples to be more confident about distributions of mtDNA haplogroups in ancient populations. There are some interesting speculations based on mtDNA, but ancient autosomal DNA will likely be much more useful for understanding migrations during and after the Neolithic.
    I do not agree with you because I think that everyone is over interpreting the autosomal DNA and paying little attention to mitochondrial haplogroups. The problem is that just as we know much better than the rest of the world the Iberian Mit-Hap because our databases are more complete. I have to admit that I suppose that in the rest of the western countries it will pass like in Spain, that is, there will be many theses and results that have not been published in international scientific journals, so there will always be data that we do not know about.

    However, mutation rates are not an obstacle to the historical tracking of the evolution of mitochondrial haplogroups in different European regions. I'm going to give you an example

    Mitochondrial Haplogroup-H1-(Iberia)-

    Els Trocs-Troc8-5.188 AC
    Alto de Rodilla-Rodi1-5.140 AC
    El Prado, Pancorbo, Burgos- 5.123 AC
    dolmen de la Mina-Mina 4-3.750 AC
    Yacimiento de la Tarayuela, Miño de Medinaceli, valle de Ambrona, Soria-3.790 AC
    Cova de B’on Santo-3.725 AC
    Cova De’n Pardo-PAR7-3.350 AC
    Camino del Molino, Caravaca, Murcia, Calcolítico Pre-Campaniforme-2.785 AC
    Valencina de la Concepción-Sevilla-Calcolítico-2.737 AC
    Mina del Aramo, calcolitico NO campaniforme-2.580 AC
    Cerdañola del Vallés, Calcolitico Pre-campaniforme-2.550 AC
    Humanejos, Madrid, BB culture, 2.600 AC
    Pago de Valhondo-1PAD, Pajares de Adaja, Avila, bB culture-2.335 AC
    las Higueras-Hig2, Huecas, Toledo-2.305 AC. BB culture
    camino de las Yeseras, Madrid-2.212 AC. BB culture
    Cueva de Santimamiñe, Kortezubi, Vizcaya-1905 AC. Early Bronze Age

    It seems clear that since there is also a lot of H in Iberia from the Magdalenian (16,000 BC), we do not have to look for an origin in the north of the Pyrenees for this haplogroup.
    but it is also true that it is a haplogroup very widespread in Western Europe so that although it is obviously related to deposits of the BB culture, we can not assure that H1 in BB sites in other European regions are Iberian women because H1 may have had a similar evolution in other places.

    Germany- H1-
    Rossen-4.550 AC
    Quedlinburg-QLB26-2.304 AC
    QLB28-2.290 AC/ Alburg-2.271 AC
    Hugo Eckener Strasse-2.214 AC
    Berzingerode-2.236 AC)-

    H1-Hungary-
    Szigetszenmiklós-2.350 AC)-

    H1 Poland- Samborzec, Polonia-2.306 AC.

    H1 England-
    Point of Cott-3.230 AC
    Isbister-2.885 AC
    Wick Barrow-2.200 AC
    Turners Yard-1.574 AC

    H1 (Chequia, Praga, Jinonice-Campaniforme-1.950 AC).


    It seems clear that H1 in Germany and England related to BB culture are a local evolution of the Haplogroup, then we can not assure that they are Iberian migrations, nevertheless the case in Poland and the Czech Republic, are clearly migrations because in those regions has never been found H1 in the Neolithic or Pre-BB calcolitic (At least with the data we have in Spain). Then, I think H1 in Poland and the Czech Republic are German BB migrations.

    Other haplogroups are much less frequent and they clearly represent migrations of Iberian women. We have given as an example the deposit of Kehf el Baroud (Casablanca, Morocco). It is a good example because in that region there have never been European haplogroups and yet in the BB burial we find- X2b+226, K1a1/b1, K1a4/a1, T2b3+151
    all of them documented in Iberia from the Neolithic to the BB culture. The most reasonable conclusion- This is an Iberian migration related to BB culture because in addition the dating of the deposit is very old and excludes the possibility that they were Central European migrations, even if these haplogroups were in that region from the Neolithic (which certainly is not the case).

    Migrations are not exclusively Iberian, Germany is very important because it shares some haplogroups, especially with the Eastern BB groups.
    K1b1/a1+199 (Alemania, Landau-2.250 AC)- K1b1/a1+199 (Paises Bajos, Oostwoud-2.100 AC), K1b1/a1+199 (Chequia, Radovesice-Campaniforme-2.350 AC)
    K1a4/b (Alemania, Irlbach-2.250 AC) - K1a4/b (Hungria, Csepel Island-2.300 AC) -
    I4a (Alemania, Ausburg, 2.250 AC)- I4a (Inglaterra-Amesbury-2.115 AC), I4a (Chequia, Radovesice-Campaniforme Europa Central- 2.350 AC/Morasevka-2.100 AC/Praga, Jinonice-2.222 AC)

    Do you think that these are coincidences? It is time for experts in mitochondrial DNA to check these regions to see if these haplogroups exist in the Neolithic, if they do not find them, they would confirm the German BB migrations.

    90% of the haplogroups related to BB pottery (Olalde, 2.018) are Western and 10% are from the steppes.

    Without any doubt BB culture is a Pan-European culture.

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  18. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    I do not agree with you because
    This line of enquiry is absolutely pointless, trying to use something like H1 to prove your 'Out of Spain Hypothesis' is absurd.

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