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Thread: I1 Migration Story

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    MWauthy,
    A really good idea for a thread, and thus far am impressed by the detail being reported by participants.

    My interest is not actually for myself but my adopted son who is I1. Thus far he is showing the same
    pattern of likely UK origin before his ancestors migrated to Australia/New Zealand.

    My greatest focus in research has been Jutland, the Sth Baltic, and the era between 850CE and 1066CE
    I have a lot of data that suggests large numbers of 'Anglo/Saxon' & 'Danish' warrior leaders & families,
    fled UK in around 1074 on several hundred ships, and went mostly to Byzantium where these people
    became the new backbone of the Varangian guard. It had formerly been dominated by Scandinavians
    particularly the Rhos (Scandinavians who traded through Russia to the Black Sea).

    However, I also believe a large number of northern leaders & warrior class fled into Scotland to get away
    from the armies of William during the period known as 'The Harrying of the North' (same reason the
    ships left for Byzantium).

    My own best summary of I1 in England is that very little came over with the Angles (IIRC, I1 is still weak
    in Jutland today compared to R1b-U106, R1a, & perhaps on a par with R1b-P312. Just as U106 is strong
    in East England but almost negligible on the west of England. I1 is the same in Denmark. i.e. strong in
    East Denmark and Skaane but drops away rapidly through the island of Fyn and more so in Jutland.

    So, I tend to be cautious about I1 arriving with the Jutes/Angles/Saxons & Frisians in the immediate
    aftermath of the Roman collapse. However, because of the origins and mix of the 'Viking' invasions that started
    with 'The Great Heathen Army' 865CE - I can believe more I1 were among them, and more among the Danish
    who later invaded under Sweyn & Canute (1013CE to 1018CD). It can be argued that perhaps most I1 and
    R1a and S1194 (apart from much Irish R1a & Orcadian R1a) came to Britain with the Viking and Danish
    incursions between 865CE and 1018CE. The Jutes, Angles, Saxons & Frisians were apparently dominantly
    U106, R1a, P312 & some I1.

    The great thing about our various lines of research is how we can learn from each other especially when some
    put a lot of focus into their own lines. (Mine is R1b-S1194 - brother clade to P312 & U106 & from my own research
    also came to Britain with the Danish incursions. Our line of S1194 settled in Devon where we are less than 0.5%
    of the Y-DNA found there. We appear to have had a home in the Sth Baltic and been part of the Danish territories).

    The above are observations and as always get refined with other peoples input and expertise. The funny side of all
    this DNA research for me is ....
    "the more I learn, the less I know".

    Doug M








    .
    Thanks for the detailed post and for the historical insights. I never thought before about how the Norman invasion of England might have affected Anglo-Saxon migration out of England.

    I agree with your theory about I1 being more present in the Viking migrations of the British Isles than in the earlier migration period. In my particular case though I would need to see some matches still in Scandinavia today with a TMRCA from that time period. So far I donít but maybe that will change when I get more results.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I figure I have I1 Y dna since my father's father's side..... is from the U.K. and I get some Scandinavian population groups as a primary with some oracles.
    Figuring does not work in this endeavor. Take and test and know for sure.

    Jack

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    Here are some excellent sources for what happened in England after William invaded. And just as an interesting aside, King Harold Godwinson - thought of as the last 'Anglo-Saxon' King of England, was actually half Danish. His father had married a Danish princess as a reward for help and support given to the Danes in the 1013-1018CE period.
    Harold's family ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold...ily_background

    Re Anglo-Saxon & Danish exodus from England after 1066 - 3 quotes & great reading ....

    Quote 1 of 3:
    'According to the recently discovered Chronicon universale anonymi Laudunensis, a group of English notables immigrated to Byzantium in 235 ships, reaching Constantinople in 1075. Some 4350 of the emigrants and their families remained in Constantinople in imperial service, while a majority of the refugees sailed to a place called Domapia, six days journey from Byzantium, conquered it and renamed it Nova Anglia (New England).[28]'

    https://asnoc.wordpress.com/2012/06/...consciousness/



    Quote 2 of 3:
    'Nonetheless, warriors with a different origin began to arrive on the scene. After the Normans had conquered England in 1066, many of the established families preferred to seek their fortune in foreign lands. At first it seems that most of these exiles from England had Danish origins from the so-called Danelaw, and they subsequently followed the footsteps of their Danish cousins to Byzantium. But soon many Anglo-Saxons followed also, often making up the majority of the Guard. A chronicler at this point distinguishes between "Inglinoi", "Rhos" and "Vrangoi", ie between Anglo-Saxons, Russians and Scandinavians.'

    http://www.soldiers-of-misfortune.co...gian-guard.htm


    Quote 3 of 3:
    'In fact most historical sources and most historians suggest that the first wave of English refugees from the Norman yoke left England after the defeat of Hereward's resistance in Ely in 1072, and arrived in Byzantium in about 1074 in time to help a previous emperor, Michael Doukas, repel a barbarian siege. The earliest Byzantine mention of their presence in the Varangian Guard (which hitherto had comprised Scandinavians and Kiev Rus) is in 1080 when 'Angli' were listed as forming a part of the Guard. It is quite possible that in 1080/1 English 'reinforcements' had joined the earlier refugees.'

    https://thewildpeak.wordpress.com/tag/varangian-guard/



    Cheers Doug
    Last edited by dsm; 09-07-2018 at 04:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    Figuring does not work in this endeavor. Take and test and know for sure.

    Jack
    what test? can you provide me a link?

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I figure I have I1 Y dna since my father's father's side..... is from the U.K. and I get some Scandinavian population groups as a primary with some oracles. Since we know Scandinavian people invaded the U.K. this seems only reasonable, however it is interesting that a small group in Sicily has the I1 Y dna as well.
    JerryS,

    The Norman conquest of Sicily is a very good source of how Scandinavian Y-DNA found its way there. It is one of the strong parts of the Norman push into Europe at a similar time as into England. An intriguing period that so few warriors could achieve so much.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman...southern_Italy

    D

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    what test? can you provide me a link?
    Jerry,
    He is basically saying a guess has its element of doubt. A Natgeo2 or other Y-DNA capable test would confirm that I1 line. But naturally you have good reason to believe it is true. In my own family, we were all told we were of Scottish decent. I did some family DNA testing and to my surprise I found my granny had been withholding the truth, she was the illegitimate daughter of a Dane and her mother who was Irish. Suddenly we had a Danish great grandfather. - but it opened a whole new line of history. Have even been to his ancestral village in Sonderborg Jutland (and got family finder matches to his descendants after I got his grandson to do a Natgeo2 test ).

    Direct proof is always the ultimate confidence creator.

    D

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    Jerry,
    He is basically saying a guess has its element of doubt. A Natgeo2 or other Y-DNA capable test would confirm that I1 line. But naturally you have good reason to believe it is true. In my own family, we were all told we were of Scottish decent. I did some family DNA testing and to my surprise I found my granny had been withholding the truth, she was the illegitimate daughter of a Dane and her mother who was Irish. Suddenly we had a Danish great grandfather. - but it opened a whole new line of history. Have even been to his ancestral village in Sonderborg Jutland (and got family finder matches to his descendants after I got his grandson to do a Natgeo2 test ).

    Direct proof is always the ultimate confidence creator.

    D
    Yes, you really don't know until you know.

    I first got into genetic genealogy thinking I would find the missing link which would connect my patrilineal Wyatt line to Sir Thomas Wyatt. I was expecting something like R1b for the haplogroup. Instead it came back I1. Through a lot of work I was able to determine that my 7th great grandfather likely was a William Wyatt who was indentured in Barbados in 1659. However on the right side of the Atlantic, the line appears to trace back to a Holcombe line.

    I started out with FTDNA's Y-37 test and later upgraded to Y-67, plus did some individual Y-SNP testing. At this point, I am ready to do Big-Y when I get the funds together.

    Jerry, you just missed out on FTDNA's latest sale, but another one will probably be along at the end of the year if you want to wait. I would recommend Y-37 which should give you your upper level haplogroup and some indication of whether you have any matches on your patrilineal line. That might be enough to answer your questions, but if you decided to ecpand your testing, that is a good level to build on.


    Here's a link to FTDNA's Y-DNA tests:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

    Hope this helps.

    Jack
    Last edited by C J Wyatt III; 09-07-2018 at 05:40 AM. Reason: additional

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    Jerry,
    He is basically saying a guess has its element of doubt. A Natgeo2 or other Y-DNA capable test would confirm that I1 line. But naturally you have good reason to believe it is true. In my own family, we were all told we were of Scottish decent. I did some family DNA testing and to my surprise I found my granny had been withholding the truth, she was the illegitimate daughter of a Dane and her mother who was Irish. Suddenly we had a Danish great grandfather. - but it opened a whole new line of history. Have even been to his ancestral village in Sonderborg Jutland (and got family finder matches to his descendants after I got his grandson to do a Natgeo2 test ).

    Direct proof is always the ultimate confidence creator.

    D
    I've traced my father's father's et al (Y-dna) side to 1757 when the first came from England to the Virginia colony.

    since my father's X line doesn't factor at all in this, and nothing from my mother's side matters here either, its reasonable to infer that I1, isn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I've traced my father's father's et al (Y-dna) side to 1757 when the first came from England to the Virginia colony.

    since my father's X line doesn't factor at all in this, and nothing from my mother's side matters here either, its reasonable to infer that I1, isn't it?
    I inferred R1b for myself, but I was wrong. Even if a line traces back to a particular region, you always have the possibility of a NPE (non paternal event). Those pesky NPE's can occur in a lot of different ways.

    I would not give myself very good odds of guessing the upper level Y-DNA haplogroup group of someone who traces ancestry back to the British Isles (or about anywhere else for that matter). That is what the tests are for.

    Jack

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I've traced my father's father's et al (Y-dna) side to 1757 when the first came from England to the Virginia colony.

    since my father's X line doesn't factor at all in this, and nothing from my mother's side matters here either, its reasonable to infer that I1, isn't it?
    Jerry, yes especially if you and your father directly resemble your grandfather.

    Funnily I don't but do closely resemble my uncle - it was a family joke that he was my real father but we know he did not meet my mother until after I was born. And I got my uncle tested via Natgeo2 and am able to show he was my uncle and not my father - I never 'really' doubted it but it nagged me enough that I traced it.

    D

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