The case Haddad

[Rathna]

298933 Haddad (Youssef Abdalla Haddad, 1877-1945) Lebanon R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

Glad you have written to me. I have spoken a lot about your haplotype, and my thinking is that it isn't R-M269, but probably R-V88+. I have found many mistakes and from so long about the FTDNA tests, one is yours. Even though your haplotype isn't in line with other R-V88+, for instance DYS454=11 and not 12, but you have many markers values in line with the R-V88+:
DYS385=12-12
DYS464=12-12-15-17
DYS438=11.
I think it would be interesting to test you farther, for instance by Geno 2.0, which would be the best, or the à la carte V88, and if you were positive (+), it would demonstrate you aren't M269+.
There is also the possibility that you are R1a* (M420*), for that I think that to test Geno 2.0 would be the first choice. If you want, we could promote a subscription I could participate to. If you were confirmed M269*, the thing would be extremely interesting for our haplogroup history.
Let me know. In this case your haplotype could be ancient in Middle East and wouldn't presuppose a recent European origin.

Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni (Rathna)

P.S. I'll post this on the forum, because it has a scientific meaning for we all and this could awaken to your case.

[Rathna]

The unique close samples I found on YHRD with DYS438=11 are these:
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12,13 11 11 15 18 15 15 24 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12,13 11 12 15 18 15 15 24 12 19 28 12 12 15 10 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
1 14 13 29 23 11 13 13 12,13 11 12 15 18 15 15 24 12 21 27 12 12 15 10 SRY10831.2 R-SRY10831.2 (Aliases: R-M448, R-M459, R-M516; YCC: R1a1) >>
Two are these:
1 of 601 Rostock, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 218 Finland [Finnish] Eurasian - Uralic-Yukaghir Europe
and probably, given their origin, it is reliable this time the hg R1a1.
The other with DYS439=11 is this:
1 of 623 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

If so, an European origin amongst the Christian Lebanese becomes possible again.

[GTC]

This fellow has been advised many times by numerous people here and elsewhere to get himself SNP tested.

So, now it's over to him to actually do that and let us all know what eventuates.

[Rathna]

The suggestion of lgmayka on another thread is good:

VR8N4 Haddad Zahlé, Brazil
13 23 14 11 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12 12 15 17 10 11 19 23 15 17 17 17 35 37 12 11
ZMFMV Kahveci Unknown
13 23 15 11 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12 12 16 17 10 11 23 23 15 16 18 17 36 38 12 11

but which R1a subclade? R-M420* or a subclade?

[GTC]

We can ponder this question until the cows come home ... or until Mr Haddad orders a SNP test.

[GoldenHind]

I can confirm that Mr. Haddad's personal pages at FTDNA show he has tested M269+, though obviously I do not know if this might be an error of some kind.

[TigerMW]

I can confirm that Mr. Haddad's personal pages at FTDNA show he has tested M269+, though obviously I do not know if this might be an error of some kind.

Yes, FTDNA has him as M269+ tested.

We can ponder this question until the cows come home ... or until Mr Haddad orders a SNP test.

We need at least one or two more tests. L23 for sure but this might be a case where Geno 2 is better because that could also invalidate the M269 test, or validate it.

There may be a language issue, but I can contact him. Does anyone want to donate money to have him tested? If so, let me know and for what.

[GTC]

There may be a language issue, but I can contact him. Does anyone want to donate money to have him tested? If so, let me know and for what.

Before trying to build a fund, I suggest you first find out if he will actually commit to further SNP testing.

Geno 2 is probably best value for money at the moment, although rumor is that FTDNA will be announcing some new stuff at their upcoming conference so may be wise to wait and see what comes of that.

[Rathna]

Does anyone want to donate money to have him tested? If so, let me know and for what.

Mike, it seems to me that to wait as GTC says should be the first choice. Second I think that R1a guys should be more interested than us R1b to the matter. By the comparison with Kahveci it seems to me more and more that Haddad is a R1a1*, not R1a* (which would interest me for some theories I have expressed about it), an R1a1* like Shpakowsky, with DYS392=13 like R1a*, but linked to the expansion of this subclade in a second phase. If I think that R1a* is above Western European/Alpine, R1a1* should be linked to Central Europe after the Younger Dryas phase. But just for this I wouldn't exclude an origin of these Lebanese from European people at the Crusaders time.

[Ahaddad]

Hi, i dont order snp yet i waitingy family Finder results. About my paternal line? Rathna, so you think that i'm not u106 or p312 of r1b subclade? And about v88 that you told before? In ysearch i fit close of one r1a (11 genetic distance) but many r1b p312 or u106( up 13 genetic distance) in 37 markers), and any v88 this mean something?