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Thread: Persians: Steppe invaders or native peoples from Iran?

  1. #1
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    Question Persians: Steppe invaders or native peoples from Iran?

    Greetings,

    I am curious as to why do the Indo-European Persians/Kurds show higher frequencies of Native Near Eastern Haplogroups (J2, J1, G) than the Indo-European haplogroups (R1a and R1b). J-M172 is typical of Middle Easterners (specifically north of the Arabian Peninsula) and it rose in Mesopotamia or Anatolia approximately 15,000-22,000.

    Am I missing out something here? Perhaps because I am not very knowledgeable about the Indo-European Steppe hypothesis? Hope someone can clarify these things.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Moe12; 09-08-2018 at 08:36 PM.

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  3. #2
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    This story that Indoeuropean was spread by "R1a and R1b" is nothing but eurocentric mumbo jumbo.

    This is the actual data collected from ancient IE cultures:

    Anatolian IEs : J2, G, J1 - Autosomally unchanged from the Chalcolithic when it was IEzid all the way to the Iron Age.
    Mycenaean Greeks: J2 - No difference between royals and commoners
    Thracians: J2, R1b, E1b
    Bactrians and ancient Iranics: J2, G, L, J1, R1b, E1b, T - From regions Ctesias of Cnidus tells us were Indoeuropean by 2200BC

    So we see a lot of J2

    But a lot of other south Caucasus Y-DNA as well, including R1b-L23.

    All the IE Y-DNA also have pretty similar distribution in Europe except for R1b-L51 which is associated with a founder effect in northern Europe:

    Obviously not every single subclade of those haplogroups came with IEs but most did.

    And this is the autosomal component associated with south Caucasus people:

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  5. #3
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    Iranians came from the steppe, but the ancestors of Persians were of mixed steppe/BMAC origin.

    An early Iranian, obviously


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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Iranians came from the steppe, but the ancestors of Persians were of mixed steppe/BMAC origin.

    An early Iranian, obviously

    good to know
    sound logic that bmac were at least partly ancestors of persians
    i score 11% bmac in kurd k36 calculator
    davidski in your opinion who do you think brought the steppe component to modern lebanese ?
    i am asking since a 4th centurey lebanese from mount lebanon carry the steppe which was lacked in bronze age lebanese samples
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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    good to know
    sound logic that bmac were at least partly ancestors of persians
    i score 11% bmac in kurd k36 calculator
    davidski in your opinion who do you think brought the steppe component to modern lebanese ?
    i am asking since a 4th centurey lebanese from mount lebanon carry the steppe which was lacked in bronze age lebanese samples
    Various Indo-Iranians probably. Maybe Hittites to some degree as well.

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  11. #6
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    It's evident from studies that modern day Persians are mixture of both "Steppe Invaders" and the farmers they encountered as they moved off of the steppe into Iran. In fact, they're mostly of farmer ancestry, which explains why Iran Chalcolithic associated markers like J are more common in the population.

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  13. #7
    People from the steppe were the first IE speaking peoples. While they spread, they mixed and Indo-Europeanized the people they encountered. And their descendants did the same thing. That's pretty much it.

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  15. #8
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    Kurdistan Adygea
    Todays Iranians can count 1/4 of their ancestors to the early Medes,Persians,Parthians. I still believe the Medes and Persians at the Median empire were not much different to Modern day Iranians, which was largely of Native stock, Hurrians,Kassites and later the Elamites were all absorbed and much of these Natives culture is still present today.
    Last edited by StarDS9; 09-08-2018 at 11:35 PM.

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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Snow View Post
    This story that Indoeuropean was spread by "R1a and R1b" is nothing but eurocentric mumbo jumbo.

    This is the actual data collected from ancient IE cultures:

    Anatolian IEs : J2, G, J1 - Autosomally unchanged from the Chalcolithic when it was IEzid all the way to the Iron Age.
    Mycenaean Greeks: J2 - No difference between royals and commoners
    Thracians: J2, R1b, E1b
    Bactrians and ancient Iranics: J2, G, L, J1, R1b, E1b, T - From regions Ctesias of Cnidus tells us were Indoeuropean by 2200BC

    So we see a lot of J2

    But a lot of other south Caucasus Y-DNA as well, including R1b-L23.

    All the IE Y-DNA also have pretty similar distribution in Europe except for R1b-L51 which is associated with a founder effect in northern Europe:

    Obviously not every single subclade of those haplogroups came with IEs but most did.

    And this is the autosomal component associated with south Caucasus people:
    Thanks for answering! I've also noticed J2, G, J1 and T and maybe a little of E1b1b to be common at Central Turks, and that's where the Hittites inhabited. Does this assert that they rather had less R1 than these haplogroups? As I've seen most people tend to assign Hittites to R1b and of course it was there but was it less or more than the former haplogroups? Thanks!
    Last edited by Moe12; 09-09-2018 at 10:40 AM.

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  19. #10
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    J2a1

    I think the story is still unfolding
    The PIE might have developed amidst interactions of J2 and R1a peoples.
    From what I recall, the latest study from Harvard demonstrated a mild infusion of steppe MBA groups into a preexisting but post-IVC “collapse” South Asian societies. From the current samples, their arrival was quite late (after 500BC), so maybe they weren’t the Indo-Aryans ?
    Last edited by VedicScholar; 10-08-2018 at 11:44 PM.

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