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Thread: Persians: Steppe invaders or native peoples from Iran?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Egypt, Mesopotamia & Crescent, Sindhu-Seven Rivers were all relatively dry and sandy.

    Iron was needed to cut the dense gangetic forest. Slash and burn was not sufficient.

    It was not easy to settle North America either. The French and Spaniards settled in relatively dry regions. That changed with hardcore farming migrant families from the British Isles. Crossing over the forest cover and the Appalachians to the less treed plains region took time.
    Yes, I'm aware that Egypt, Fertile crescent were dry etc. but the difference is they are located in a largely dry region anyway-that's not the case with IVC. There are moist regions directly east and southeast, so at least to me it seemed a little strange that IVC would be the stronghold for settlement.

    Forest explanation makes sense.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Egypt, Mesopotamia & Crescent, Sindhu-Seven Rivers were all relatively dry and sandy.

    Iron was needed to cut the dense gangetic forest. Slash and burn was not sufficient.

    It was not easy to settle North America either. The French and Spaniards settled in relatively dry or less treed regions. That changed with hardcore farming migrant families from the British Isles. Crossing over the forest cover and the Appalachians to the less treed plains region took time.
    Yes, the area was dense forest unlike Gedrosia/Punjab. The expansion was already happening into the Gangetic plains (Rakhigarhi Haryana) but the Indo-Aryans supercharged the forest clearing with their tech post IVC drying up

    Dravidian Agriculturists did too in the South, which in a way was even rougher terrain than the Gangetic plains

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Thats odd because R1a would be higher in modern Swat than in Iran_N J/L shifted Gedrosia and so would steppe adna (Uthmankhel etc)

    Arent Dardic languages meant to be the closest to proto-Indo-Aryan? it seems odd that no Indo-Aryan culture, such as the gotra system or Brahmins, survived in Gedrosia (languages are either Iranian or Dravidian) and that the place has no mention in the RgVeda whereas Punjab and Gandhara does
    On the other hand, we can't always infer the past from the present.

    The earliest attested Indo-Aryan is from the Upper Mesopotamia region - >1761 BC Tell Leilan in Northern Syria.
    And it was not localized either. Indo-Aryan names and words appear over a vast region from Ur, Akkad, Egypt, Syria, and the Levant. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post266168

    Hardly anything Indo-Aryan still remains in that area for anyone to infer Indo-Aryan presence in the past.

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    Not supporting one theory over the other, but there's the Hinglaj Mata Shakti Peeth in Hinglaj, Lasbela, Balochistan which is quite an important dharmic site, especially for followers of Shaktism. However, Lasbela can be called more so a part of greater Sindh as well as there as there are Lasi/Sindhi speakers there. But, I do think the Gandhara route of Indo-Aryan migration is much likelier than the Gedrosia route, though the latter has some valid arguments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Yes, I'm aware that Egypt, Fertile crescent were dry etc. but the difference is they are located in a largely dry region anyway-that's not the case with IVC. There are moist regions directly east and southeast, so at least to me it seemed a little strange that IVC would be the stronghold for settlement.

    Forest explanation makes sense.
    IVC was actually fertile land near water like the Yellow river where the Han civilization was formed

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  10. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Muslims in Lebanon have more steppe than Christians. Steppe ancestry is mostly Indo-Iranian and Greco-Hellenian in the Near East.
    That could be explained by simple conversion, as they arrived from Europe and then they were defeated and forced to convert or die during those times. While the present living Christians could be relatively later arrivals from Iraq (Syriacs).

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    I think we should be cautious at modern " Steppe " because it could be the remnants of endogamy or regionalization. Are we sure that urban muslims have more steppe than urban christians in Lebanon, or are we talking about an ethnic like the Druze?

  12. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Thats odd because R1a would be higher in modern Swat than in Iran_N J/L shifted Gedrosia and so would steppe adna (Uthmankhel etc)

    Arent Dardic languages meant to be the closest to proto-Indo-Aryan? it seems odd that no Indo-Aryan culture, such as the gotra system or Brahmins, survived in Gedrosia (languages are either Iranian or Dravidian) and that the place has no mention in the RgVeda whereas Punjab and Gandhara does
    Dardic are another branch of Indo-Aryan languages. They are not direct descendants of Vedic languages. Also Kalash culture and religion is really distinct from Vedic religion. I actually would say it is heavy influenced by local pre-Indo-European religons.



    Actually it seems that the Helmand/Argandab river in southern Afghanistan was once called Haraxvati was is the Iranic cognacte of Vedic Sarasvati.


    ARACHOSIA, province (satrapy) in the eastern part of the Achaemenid empire around modern Kandahār (southern Afghanistan), which was inhabited by the Iranian Arachosians or Arachoti. The Old Persian form of its name is Harauvatiš (h-r-u-v-t-i-); this form is the etymological equivalent of Vedic Sárasvatī- (fem., name of a river, properly “ rich in waters/lakes” and derived from sáras- “lake, pond”); thus the province is named after its main river, the modern Arḡandāb (in Greek called Arachōtós), a tributary of the Helmand. The same region appears in the Avestan Vidēvdāt (1.12) under the indigenous dialect form Haraxᵛaitī- (whose -axᵛa- is typical non-Avestan);
    Many river names in southern and even western Afghanistan are of Indo-Aryan origin, what means that there was an Indo-Aryan population at one time in history there.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 10-11-2018 at 11:26 AM.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Dardic are another branch of Indo-Aryan languages. They are not direct descendants of Vedic languages. Also Kalash culture and religion is really distinct from Vedic religion. I actually would say it is heavy influenced by local pre-Indo-European religons. Genetically they are less Indo-Aryan than

    Actually it seems that the Helmand river is southern Afghanistan was once called Haraxvati was it the Iranic cognacte of Vedic Sarasvati. Many river names in southern and even western Afghanistan are of Indo-Aryan origin, what means that there was an Indo-Aryan population at one time in history there.
    true, like the BMAC which they have a high concentration of ancestry from autosomally as well as WSHG

    Heres some R1a stats I found for the region. Look at the Gedrosian pops vs the others. I have noticed a disparity between Sindh and Balochistan in terms of R1a levels (Mohanna, Gujarati Lohana, Sindhi)

    Last edited by bmoney; 10-11-2018 at 10:01 AM.

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    BBC report:The result of the 2600 Iranian genetic analysis

    youtube.com/watch?v=fjn-leEIT70

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