Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst ... 89101112 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 116

Thread: Persians: Steppe invaders or native peoples from Iran?

  1. #91
    Junior Member
    Posts
    6
    Sex

    Shahr-e Sūkhté (Persian: شهرِ سوخته‎, meaning "[The] Burnt City"), also spelled as Shahr-e Sukhteh and Shahr-i Shōkhta, is an archaeological site of a sizable Bronze Age urban settlement, associated with the Jiroft culture. It is located in Sistan and Baluchistan Province, the southeastern part of Iran

    The first artificial eye and the world's first animation were found in this city

    The burned city in eastern Iran, which is said to have found bodies of 5 meters in length !!

    the y dna result skeleton from Shahr-e Sukhteh is J2

    uupload.ir/files/0rm2_irnnn.jpg

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to tompom For This Useful Post:

     kingjohn (10-11-2018)

  3. #92
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,834

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Not supporting one theory over the other, but there's the Hinglaj Mata Shakti Peeth in Hinglaj, Lasbela, Balochistan which is quite an important dharmic site, especially for followers of Shaktism. However, Lasbela can be called more so a part of greater Sindh as well as there as there are Lasi/Sindhi speakers there. But, I do think the Gandhara route of Indo-Aryan migration is much likelier than the Gedrosia route, though the latter has some valid arguments.
    The Nana Durga tradition among the Baloch.
    https://indianexpress.com/article/op...omacy-4980003/

    The IVC towns Dholavira and Kalibangan are in the tripura formation. These fortifications had their deity in Durga (fort-durg goddess-durga) also called Tripurasundari (Nana, Sharda, Nano). She rides on a lion (or tiger in Bangal).
    Also Dashly-3 in N. Afghanistan (Bactria) and the Mahakali Yantra motif.


    On Nana Durga:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ll=1#post93937

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (10-11-2018),  Jatt1 (10-13-2018),  Kulin (10-11-2018)

  5. #93
    Registered Users
    Posts
    22
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA
    J2a1

    Italian scholars have a proud history of research into Central Asia.
    Recently, Massimo Vidale debunked the AIT hypothesis of Kuzmina. (in ''Protohistoric graveyards of the Swat Valley..)

    ''All of this suggests a female-centred pattern: women were buried in megalithic graves, thereby alluding to their leading role in the household, while the remains of a male relative played an important but secondary role as an ‘accessory’..
    The interpretation by Kuz’mina (2007: 309) of double burials as an “Indo-Aryan antecedent” of the sati custom of Hindu aristocratic tradition—the ritual suicide of the widow after her husband’s death—has no supporting evidence, as it is not backed by the required microstratigraphic records, nor by osteological studies...


    For good measure the French and Germans are getting there too, instead of conquering steppe nomads they describe the real nature of interactions. ''The boundaries of social categories in a specific place and time were instead reshaped, perhaps especially for the pastoralists.''
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...9F390B69A65936

    This nicely matches the aDNA - a trickling in of some steppe groups, being assimilated by pre-existing cultural groups.
    We are looking forward to more publications by teams like Max Planck, who really seem to have a solid grasp of Eurasian prehistory.

  6. #94
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,696
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by VedicScholar View Post
    Italian scholars have a proud history of research into Central Asia.
    Recently, Massimo Vidale debunked the AIT hypothesis of Kuzmina. (in ''Protohistoric graveyards of the Swat Valley..).
    Nope.

    In particular, genetic influx from Central Asia in the Bronze Age was strongly male-driven, consistent with the patriarchal, patrilocal and patrilineal social structure attributed to the inferred pastoralist early Indo-European society.

    Altogether, therefore, the recently refined Y-chromosome tree strongly suggests that R1a is indeed a highly plausible marker for the long-contested Bronze Age spread of Indo-Aryan speakers into South Asia, although dated aDNA evidence will be needed for a precise estimate of its arrival in various parts of the Subcontinent.
    "Heavily sex-biased" population dispersals into the Indian Subcontinent (Silva et al. 2017)

  7. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (10-14-2018),  Coldmountains (10-13-2018),  Jatt1 (10-13-2018),  jdean (10-13-2018),  Michał (10-13-2018),  Pribislav (10-13-2018),  Ruderico (10-13-2018)

  8. #95
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,795
    Location
    Gonur Tepe

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Dardic are another branch of Indo-Aryan languages. They are not direct descendants of Vedic languages. Also Kalash culture and religion is really distinct from Vedic religion. I actually would say it is heavy influenced by local pre-Indo-European religons.



    Actually it seems that the Helmand/Argandab river in southern Afghanistan was once called Haraxvati was is the Iranic cognacte of Vedic Sarasvati.



    Many river names in southern and even western Afghanistan are of Indo-Aryan origin, what means that there was an Indo-Aryan population at one time in history there.
    Haravati and Sarasvati are derived cognates of BMAC water goddesses , the same Anahita associated with fertility and fruitation , has a similar counterpart in Hinduism. In old Zoroastrian traditions she was honored with Sabzeh from Wheat grass seeds, that now is done typically done now for Sofreh Haftseen for Now Ruz , interestingly the same ritual is done to honor goddesses in the Navreh/Navratri in parts of Northern India.

    Dardic languages can be seen as basal with Rig Vedic Sanskrit, as per Noam Chomsky they acquire the same denti-alveolar, retroflex, and palato-alveolar consonant trio the same time, this is what gives South Asian languages their distinctive sounds,. According to him and a few others like Arsenault these sounds are being absorbed from some Irula like language, which is rich in sounds which they associate with Australian Aboriginal languages. This is why the limes of Indo Aryan languages lay in the NW or Northern Indus Basin, rather than the south Indus Basin (Balochistan/Western Sind) where more Zagrosian rich people would have resided and where they still do today . To tie it in with genetics, AASI rich type samples keep popping up in the Swat , and in Nmonte a much more AASI shifted Saidu Sharif outlier works far better than any of the InPe samples for almost any of the NW SA pops I have seen and even the Afghan members on it. A similar result has been demonstrated by a senior member on his population genomics blog using formal stats, he used Irulas.

    The Kalash evolved out of a proto Rig Vedic culture in isolation but to exclude them from the Vedic world would be unfair, as they are particular customs and philosophic mores which are eerily similar to those in the Vedic tradition. Even within the Vedic tradition , between the Rig Ved and Upanishads there is a significant absorption of the Agama tradition and this dramatically increases into Antiquity by the time of Valmiki.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to pegasus For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (10-14-2018)

  10. #96
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,795
    Location
    Gonur Tepe

    Quote Originally Posted by VedicScholar View Post
    Italian scholars have a proud history of research into Central Asia.
    Recently, Massimo Vidale debunked the AIT hypothesis of Kuzmina. (in ''Protohistoric graveyards of the Swat Valley..)

    ''All of this suggests a female-centred pattern: women were buried in megalithic graves, thereby alluding to their leading role in the household, while the remains of a male relative played an important but secondary role as an ‘accessory’..
    The interpretation by Kuz’mina (2007: 309) of double burials as an “Indo-Aryan antecedent” of the sati custom of Hindu aristocratic tradition—the ritual suicide of the widow after her husband’s death—has no supporting evidence, as it is not backed by the required microstratigraphic records, nor by osteological studies...


    For good measure the French and Germans are getting there too, instead of conquering steppe nomads they describe the real nature of interactions. ''The boundaries of social categories in a specific place and time were instead reshaped, perhaps especially for the pastoralists.''
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...9F390B69A65936

    This nicely matches the aDNA - a trickling in of some steppe groups, being assimilated by pre-existing cultural groups.
    We are looking forward to more publications by teams like Max Planck, who really seem to have a solid grasp of Eurasian prehistory.
    This is misleading , its likely men were being cremated, the women were not, the most elaborate graves were of women. The site not sampled was Timargara and its screams Indo Aryan , ie horse sacrifices, fire altars . I don't think its an assimilated group at all , its a new culture mixing with locals, its very different from Cemetery H or other post IVC cultures. I think once they get genomes from Timargara it will be a done deal. Also it is the earliest site, has the most cremations and horse remains, likely from Azvamedha sacrifices.
    Last edited by pegasus; 10-13-2018 at 11:52 AM.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to pegasus For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (10-14-2018),  Coldmountains (10-13-2018),  palamede (10-13-2018)

  12. #97
    Registered Users
    Posts
    22
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA
    J2a1

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    This is misleading , its likely men were being cremated, the women were not, the most elaborate graves were of women. The site not sampled was Timargara and its screams Indo Aryan , ie horse sacrifices, fire altars . I don't think its an assimilated group at all , its a new culture mixing with locals, its very different from Cemetery H or other post IVC cultures. I think once they get genomes from Timargara it will be a done deal. Also it is the earliest site, has the most cremations and horse remains, likely from Azvamedha sacrifices.
    You have misunderstood the implications. The major point was that the suggested conquest or dominance does not materialise. We can later debate your what-ifs (cremated males, etc) and exact character of assimilation.
    But the implications are clear to anyone who's Sober.

    From the Damgaard paper supplement

    ''Archaeological record shows an interaction between the world of the steppes and the settled agriculturalists on the plains of Bactria and Margiana (Anthony 2007: ch. 16). That record also documents a process of assimilation between peoples from the north with sedentary agriculturalists who already participated in a greater cultural tradition with millennia-old roots extending back into southern Turkmenistan and Baluchistan (Salvatori 2008). ''

    The archeogenetic data therefore suggests that pastoralists incorporated themselves into Turan and Indus systems which who had been functioning for millenia, but obviously were not themselves static.
    Last edited by VedicScholar; 10-16-2018 at 01:02 AM.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to VedicScholar For This Useful Post:

     bmoney (10-16-2018)

  14. #98
    Registered Users
    Posts
    22
    Nationality
    Italy
    Y-DNA
    J2a1

    delete
    Last edited by VedicScholar; 10-16-2018 at 01:46 AM. Reason: alaborate below

  15. #99
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,779
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    L1a1
    mtDNA
    M30

    Quote Originally Posted by VedicScholar View Post
    You have misunderstood the implications. The major point was that the suggested conquest or dominance does not materialise. We can later debate your what-ifs (cremated males, etc) and exact character of assimilation.
    But the implications are clear to anyone who's Sober.

    From the Damgaard paper supplement

    ''Archaeological record shows an interaction between the world of the steppes and the settled agriculturalists on the plains of Bactria and Margiana (Anthony 2007: ch. 16). That record also documents a process of assimilation between peoples from the north with sedentary agriculturalists who already participated in a greater cultural tradition with millennia-old roots extending back into southern Turkmenistan and Baluchistan (Salvatori 2008). ''

    The archeogenetic data therefore suggests that pastoralists incorporated themselves into Turan and Indus systems which who had been functioning for millenia, but obvously were not static.
    Makes sense, they incorporated cultural elements: Shiva, Indra, Soma etc and adopted IVC/BMAC agriculture en masse

    Though the soft-replacement scenario where previous (J/L/R2) ruling lineages were significantly replaced by a R1a/Q patrilineal based kin-clan system (probably maintained from pastoralist/warrior days) heavily maintaining Indo-Aryan culture also can't be discounted.

    Ie its not as harmonious as we think either given the dominance of Indo-Aryan culture in most of South Asia and that fact that we still struggle to find substratum culturally and linguistically and only genetics gives us absolute clarity that there were actually people distinct to modern South Asian Indo-Aryans in Indo-Aryan South Asia

    Indo-Aryan culture was probably also considered high culture due to elite dominance, and the 'Aryanization' of the Gangetic plains sped up due to this in periods like the Kuru kingdom
    Last edited by bmoney; 10-16-2018 at 01:15 AM.

  16. #100
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,795
    Location
    Gonur Tepe

    Quote Originally Posted by VedicScholar View Post
    You have misunderstood the implications. The major point was that the suggested conquest or dominance does not materialise. We can later debate your what-ifs (cremated males, etc) and exact character of assimilation.
    But the implications are clear to anyone who's Sober.

    From the Damgaard paper supplement

    ''Archaeological record shows an interaction between the world of the steppes and the settled agriculturalists on the plains of Bactria and Margiana (Anthony 2007: ch. 16). That record also documents a process of assimilation between peoples from the north with sedentary agriculturalists who already participated in a greater cultural tradition with millennia-old roots extending back into southern Turkmenistan and Baluchistan (Salvatori 2008). ''

    The archeogenetic data therefore suggests that pastoralists incorporated themselves into Turan and Indus systems which who had been functioning for millenia, but obviously were not themselves static.
    Its not about being sober its common sense. If they were truly assimilated that would mean they would speak a BMAC and/or IVC language, but neither of these languages are present today and nobody even knows what they were or what they sound like do you? You are misconstruing what I am saying . They were heavilynfluenced by the BMAC and many learned water irrigation and advanced farming there but they kept their language and they kept a large degree of their religion. They arrived in a time when the BMAC and IVC more or less collapsed and people returned to a much more rudimentary akin to what happened Post the collapse of Rome in the Dark Ages , they blended heavily with locals to create cultural shift , akin to what happened in the Yamna and filled the vaccuum.

Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst ... 89101112 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Do Pakistanis cluster closer to Indians or Persians?
    By Bar in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-08-2017, 06:01 PM
  2. Persians of East Africa
    By jesus in forum Persian
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-03-2017, 08:27 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-04-2016, 03:43 AM
  4. Iraqi Persians
    By Alanson in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-06-2014, 02:34 AM
  5. Replies: 51
    Last Post: 06-18-2013, 12:22 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •