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Thread: Extinction of Old Prussians

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    1. Don't put too much weight on the accuracy of results from services like Ancestry DNA. They're mostly accurate at the continent level (European, Sub Saharan African, East Asian, etc.) Anything below that is a rough estimate.

    2. 2% is almost at the level of random noise, and could just be shared ancestry with some of your other European components.
    Yeah, that's probably all it is. But on the other hand, it's fun to speculate something more specific. I have Carl Springer, 1658(Stockholm)-1738(Delaware), in my tree on my maternal side who immigrated from Sweden back in the 1600s or etc. His paternal line is German (Saxon or similar). But he has various maternal connections that are various other. He has a connection to Danzig, occupied by the Swedes back then, I think (30 years war era). Then on my paternal side in Norway, I have a female thread going back to Bergen. That was a Hanseatic League city with visitor-residents from around northern Europe (Riga?). Otherwise my Norwegians are from up the Sogne Fjord or from Oppland area - Valdres.
    Last edited by Baltimore1937; 12-07-2018 at 10:08 AM.

  2. #22
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    Baltic DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    I guess the only way is to get the ancient old Prussian DNA examples, as well as contemporary examples of neighboring peoples (old Polish, old Lithuana, old German e.t.c). Then we will be able to distinguish and estimate old Prussian DNA percentages in modern populations.
    Everybody's complaining about the ethnicity estimates. MyHeritage gives me 10% Baltic DNA. According to paper research, in my opinion this can only be old Prussian DNA.
    Eastern Europeans
    62,2%
    Baltic
    10,1%
    Scandinavian
    26,3%
    Last edited by Kramkowski; 12-09-2018 at 10:50 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramkowski View Post
    Everybody's complaining about the ethnicity estimates. MyHeritage gives me 10% Baltic DNA. According to paper research, in my opinion this can only be old Prussian DNA.
    Eastern Europeans
    62,2%
    Baltic
    10,1%
    Scandinavian
    26,3%
    Just forget about MyHeritage Baltic DNA estimations, they really mix Slavic and Baltic DNA's. They made it possible to see the the average results for a country (DNA -> Ethnicities Map) and I checked 78% of people from Russia, who tested or uploaded their data to MyHeritage have Baltic DNA. 66% for Ukrainians. Both me and my family members got unexpected high percent of Baltic admixture, although there was no one from the region according to our family story.
    If you haven't got Baltic ethnicity estimations from other companies, you should probably ignore the numbers from MyHeritage. That's an error, not an "old Prussian DNA".
    Last edited by artemv; 12-15-2018 at 03:24 AM.

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  6. #24
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    Kursenieki (Prussian Curonians) may have genetic profiles as close to old Prussians as one can find. That is if you can find a Kurseniek person.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki

    PS
    Not to be confused with Latvian subgroup Kurši. Although , they are related by language at least.

    Their settlement before they were transferred to Germany.


    Last edited by Volat; 12-14-2018 at 08:51 PM.

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    That's an error, not an "old Prussian DNA".
    Due to its location, the area around Allenstein was colonised only late - in the 14th century. At that time there were not enough new German settlers in this area. That is why many native Prussians were commissioned by the Teutonic Order to found villages there. Settlers from Mazovia did not arrive until the 2nd half of the 15th century. 25% of my atDNA comes exactly and for a long time from this area. Among them probably a high portion is prussian and a probably still higher portion Polish. In post no. 15 I had asked whether Prussian DNA can be distinguished from other DNA.

    Paper research: Surnames of my direct ancestors on the father's side (grandfather), until 18th century, partly until 17th century in the chamber office Allenstein(Ermland): Barwin(ski), Berndt, Biernat, Blazejo(e)wski, Bloch, Brzekala, Dragowski, Falk, Grabosz, Jeworowski, Karwacki, Kerszta, Kyek/Kijek, Kramkowski (paternal line), Kunat(h), Leszkiewicz, Magicki/Maicki, Mniocha, Malewski, Pieczewski, Talkowski, Woyda

    That is a mixture of names with Prussian origin and Polish names.

    Also all other ancestors come from the proximity, so that also with these ancestors old Prussian portions can be contained.
    Here are the Surnames of my other direct ancestors on the mother's side, until ca. 1700, all in the “Oberland” (Rosenberg district, today named Susz): Chirr, Dalkowski, Diesing, Eichel, Goll, Hein, Heyer/Heier/Heuer, Kasche, Klein, Konopacky, Krause, Loepke, Loy, Malinowsky, Mischkowski, Nowack, Pawlowski, Reich, Retzlaff, Rogalski, Schachtschneider, Schmidt, Schultz and the surnames of direct ancestors on father's side (grandmother), until early 19th century: Hintz (Heiligenbeil), Kewitz (place unknown), Nürnberg (Stargard), Pohl (Heiligenbeil), Römer (Elbing)

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramkowski View Post
    Everybody's complaining about the ethnicity estimates. MyHeritage gives me 10% Baltic DNA. According to paper research, in my opinion this can only be old Prussian DNA.
    Eastern Europeans
    62,2%
    Baltic
    10,1%
    Scandinavian
    26,3%
    As it was mentioned above all eastern Slavs have Baltic at MyHeritage. It's not just 10%. Anything from 30% to 55%. MyHeritage is mixing Slavic and Baltic DNA.

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  10. #27
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    @Kramkowski

    Nobody says you don't have any Old Prussian ancestors, only that it is almost impossible to verify this using your MyHeritage results. People who don't have any Baltic ancestors within the last 1000 years may show more "Baltic ancestry" in MyHeritage than you.

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  12. #28
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    Similarly, many Balts score 98-100% north Slavic at DNA.Land. Latvians in particular. It doesn't mean Latvians are 'northern" Slavs. PS Unusual definition, because there are no northern Slavs.

  13. #29
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    Please forgive me if I write nonsense....
    I am new to this forum and looking for "who I am".
    3 years ago I found out by chance in my father's documents that my grandfather had our family name changed from "Kramkowski" to "Römer" in 1940.

    Until then I knew nothing about my ancestors.

    Since then I have been intensively engaged in family research at all levels and at the moment an official application is underway from me to the city authorities to get the name "Kramkowski" back. The outcome of this application is unfortunately uncertain.

    My whole life so far I did not know where I felt belonging and where my roots are. In every free minute I go to Poland, to the area south of Olsztyn, where I feel at home and where I have found Kramkowski relatives who have not left their homeland. I am currently preparing my permanent resettlement to Poland (which also means learning Polish).

    But that does not mean that I feel like a citizen of the Polish state.

    I have a question: How would you answer the questions about ethnicity and nationality in my profile? (see also Post 25) Are there any objective criteria for this or is it entirely based on subjective feelings, on pleasure and mood? Or does it simply depend on the language with which you grew up as a child? I would doubt that, because language is only "surface". In my opinion, nationality and ethnicity are not "learnable".

    As already said, excuse the nonsense of a newcomer...

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramkowski View Post
    I have a question: How would you answer the questions about ethnicity and nationality in my profile? (see also Post 25) Are there any objective criteria for this or is it entirely based on subjective feelings, on pleasure and mood? Or does it simply depend on the language with which you grew up as a child? I would doubt that, because language is only "surface". In my opinion, nationality and ethnicity are not "learnable".
    I'm afraid there is no easy answer to your question. One way of dealing with this is to accept that there are many different measures that can be used to determine one's ethnicity or nationality. Thus, one way of looking at it is to give very strong priority to your personal feelings, and the other way is to accept that what really counts is how other people perceive you (and you should also keep in mind that what you feel about yourself is always very strongly influenced by how people see you, and vice versa, so these are not two completely independent measures). Furthermore, in both cases there are many different factors that influence our judgment in this respect, and these include our biological/genetic ancestry, our cultural heritage and our legal status (in different proportions, depending on the situation). To complicate it even further, your biological, cultural and legal "identities" do not need to be fully "consistent" with each other, so in such case you simply need to accept this and see yourself as a multidimensional person who cannot be described by just one simplified label. Finally, you also need to be aware that many people are of mixed ethnic/national origin, so focusing on some selected ancestral lineages while ignoring or belittling the remaining ones doesn't seem to be a good approach.

    As to whether nationality or ethnicity are "learnable", I think to some extent they are, and although you cannot change your biology/DNA (at least not yet, though this may change very soon), both your culture and legal status are subject to changes, so even if a complete change of one's ethnicity or nationality is very difficult to imagine, there is no doubt that some kind of evolution is possible in individual cases.

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