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Thread: M269* in Sardinia - Brother Clade to L23

  1. #1
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    M269* in Sardinia - Brother Clade to L23

    Looking over the Francalacci data on Sardinia, it looks like there are ten M269(xL23). All ten have the following either observed or inferred:

    23047845 G>A (10 of 10)
    15256141 G>A
    21110969 A>G
    14579448 G>T
    17903480 C>T
    22871037 T>C
    21631153 C>A
    22593933 G>A
    19369222 A>T

    So this means that all M269* Sardinians in the dataset form a single brother clade to L23 and not a diverse mix of M269 types. All six L23(xL11) samples are Z2103/Z2105+ and all three L51(xL11) samples are all Z2115+.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Looking over the Francalacci data on Sardinia, it looks like there are ten M269(xL23) ...

    So this means that all M269* Sardinians in the dataset form a single brother clade to L23 and not a diverse mix of M269 types. All six L23(xL11) samples are Z2103/Z2105+ and all three L51(xL11) samples are all Z2115+.
    Very interesting. Thank you, Richard.

    Even though they are a brother clade, identifying brothers to L23+ folks is very important.

    Should we consider it an important clue that among R1b in Europe, the Basques and Sardinians stand-alone at the bottom of Dienekes' West Asian autosomal content?

    We haven't found any M269xL23 among the Basques, have we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Very interesting. Thank you, Richard.

    Even though they are a brother clade, identifying brothers to L23+ folks is very important.

    Should we consider it an important clue that among R1b in Europe, the Basques and Sardinians stand-alone at the bottom of Dienekes' West Asian autosomal content?

    We haven't found any M269xL23 among the Basques, have we?
    I don't know of any Basque M269(xL23) in any study or database. As a whole, it looks like M269(xL23) is completely absent in Iberia and there is only a trickle of L23(xZ2103/Z2105).

    I don't pay any attention to Dienekes' West Asian autosomal groupings as they have no correlation to a single Y-lineage.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I don't know of any Basque M269(xL23) in any study or database. As a whole, it looks like M269(xL23) is completely absent in Iberia and there is only a trickle of L23(xZ2103/Z2105).

    I don't pay any attention to Dienekes' West Asian autosomal groupings as they have no correlation to a single Y-lineage.
    Do we have any decent Y STR coverage for Sardinian R1b DNA? Do we have DYS437, DYS448 and/or GataH4? It would be interesting if we found some North-South cluster folks. I'm assuming the data you are looking at doesn't cover DF27 for those that are L51/L11/P312, or does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Looking over the Francalacci data on Sardinia, it looks like there are ten M269(xL23). All ten have the following either observed or inferred:

    23047845 G>A (10 of 10)
    15256141 G>A
    21110969 A>G
    14579448 G>T
    17903480 C>T
    22871037 T>C
    21631153 C>A
    22593933 G>A
    19369222 A>T

    So this means that all M269* Sardinians in the dataset form a single brother clade to L23 and not a diverse mix of M269 types. All six L23(xL11) samples are Z2103/Z2105+ and all three L51(xL11) samples are all Z2115+.
    What does this mean for PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563? Are these Sardinian M269(xL23) negative for these three Sardinian SNPs? These are the SNPs found in the L23- L150+ group of the ht35 project. As Rathna has pointed out on another forum, FTDNA kit 282121 in the O'Donnell Surname Project is also L23- L150+ PF7558+, PF7562+, and PF7563+.
    Last edited by seferhabahir; 08-08-2013 at 01:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seferhabahir View Post
    What does this mean for PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563? Are these Sardinian M269(xL23) negative for these three Sardinian SNPs? These are the SNPs found in the L23- L150+ group of the ht35 project. As Rathna has pointed out on another forum, FTDNA kit 282121 in the O'Donnell Surname Project is also L23- L150+ PF7558+, PF7562+, and PF7563+.
    PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563 are all labeled as "Approx. hg: R-M269" and "Extracted from genome study of Sardinian samples" by Thomas Krahn.

    Build 36:
    PF7558 = chrY:3489974-3489974
    PF7562 = chrY:8012440-8012440
    PF7563 = chrY:8670246-8670246

    Build 37
    PF7558 = chrY:3429974-3429974
    PF7562 = chrY:7952440-7952440
    PF7563 = chrY:8610246-8610246

    None of these are in the Sardinia supplementary material, but I was told that these samples were re-sequenced to cover a larger area after this study, so it may be that for this paper, these areas were not covered. Either that or they come from additional Sardinian samples.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     seferhabahir (08-09-2013)

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I don't know of any Basque M269(xL23) in any study or database. As a whole, it looks like M269(xL23) is completely absent in Iberia and there is only a trickle of L23(xZ2103/Z2105).

    I don't pay any attention to Dienekes' West Asian autosomal groupings as they have no correlation to a single Y-lineage.
    Actually I found a Basque R-M269* and I spoke about it either with Maju or with JeanL, but don't ask me where and when.

    Truly have you found these L23(xZ2103/Z2105)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Actually I found a Basque R-M269* and I spoke about it either with Maju or with JeanL, but don't ask me where and when.

    Truly have you found these L23(xZ2103/Z2105)?
    Sorry, I mean to write that there is only a trickle of L23(xL51) in Iberia and therefore very little potential for Z2103/Z2105 or true L23(xL51,xZ2103/Z2105) in Iberia.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Is it possible to do meaningful variance calculations on them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Looking over the Francalacci data on Sardinia, it looks like there are ten M269(xL23). All ten have the following either observed or inferred:

    23047845 G>A (10 of 10)
    15256141 G>A
    21110969 A>G
    14579448 G>T
    17903480 C>T
    22871037 T>C
    21631153 C>A
    22593933 G>A
    19369222 A>T

    So this means that all M269* Sardinians in the dataset form a single brother clade to L23 and not a diverse mix of M269 types.

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Is it possible to do meaningful variance calculations on them?
    Alan, they only provided SNPs, no STRs, so variance is not possible.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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