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Thread: Great Britain and Ireland Sub-Regions

  1. #1
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    Great Britain and Ireland Sub-Regions

    How is Living DNA able to split Central, East, and South England into multiple sub-regions when the POBI project showed that these areas remained in one cluster even when the number of clusters was increased to 24? See image for what I am referring to.

    Living DNA vs POBI.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopLobster View Post
    How is Living DNA able to split Central, East, and South England into multiple sub-regions when the POBI project showed that these areas remained in one cluster even when the number of clusters was increased to 24? See image for what I am referring to.

    Living DNA vs POBI.png
    I remember someone posting about this a good while back with a lot more info than I can remember now. But given that no one else has replied, I think Living DNA just claim they've also added their own samples and are overall confident of their ability to differentiate more than POBI dared to do. My own English results certainly look reasonably good (I was in the first batch of testers). At least, they didn't throw in anything unexpected or unlikely such as East Anglian (I'm not from Kent although the southeast has become my home)....
    Last edited by JonikW; 09-14-2018 at 11:07 PM.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    I am surprised the red "SE England" cluster is homogenous across that entire geographic space. I would expect there to be some regions breaking off from it due to higher Germanic. There is no way to me that somewhere like Hampshire or Berkshire has as much Germanic admixture as does East Anglia or Kent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I am surprised the red "SE England" cluster is homogenous across that entire geographic space. I would expect there to be some regions breaking off from it due to higher Germanic. There is no way to me that somewhere like Hampshire or Berkshire has as much Germanic admixture as does East Anglia or Kent.
    This is off the top of my head but it was said that it takes an incredibly close examination to break the large red SE English cluster into separate regions. While some Living DNA test results were able to successfully split the ancestry of some into regions within it for others it was not able to. I personally think the scale is too fine. For all we know someone from a place like Hampshire could have more Germanic ancestry than someone from East Anglia due to later migrations from the continent like France or Belgium. Norfolk's collection of aDNA results reveals a very French-like autosomal picture and for an East Anglian clusters very far from the Germanic types. It's difficult to say with certainty at the time being.

    Edit: This youtube video shows and explains how the POBI samples break down into their clusters:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ANNHMzmxlI
    Starts around 16:40
    He says the large red cluster never splits even at 53 clusters. I think I remember hearing somewhere that if you go past this level it does eventually split but at that point the differences are incredibly tiny.

    The Irish DNA Atlas has one large English cluster (blue on their map instead of read) at K30 but at K48 four English clusters split off from this but they are all very tiny - two have 1 individual and the other two have only 3. So two analyses conclude that it's a pretty darn genetically homogeneous area.
    Last edited by sktibo; 09-16-2018 at 04:14 PM.

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    It may just be coincidental, but the "cautious" settings, where they group certain sections back together, are actually the most accurate reflection of my known genealogy. They put me at:

    Northwest England-related ancestry - 42.2%
    Northumbria-related ancestry - 22.3%
    North Yorkshire - 8.1%
    Orkney-related ancestry - 6.7%
    Southeast England-related ancestry - 6.4%
    and Cornwall and North Wales at around 2% each

    *If* they had caught my (high confidence and relatively recent) line from Mecklenburg (Prussia), I would have been truly blown away by how close this matches what I know. However, for whatever reason, the Prussian component appears to hide in the English genes.

    So, for what it's worth, and I admit it could just be a happy coincidence, their cautious map is extremely accurate for me, including the strange bridging of areas that, at first glance, one would not necessarily believe are connected.
    Latest paper trail:
    Lancashire/Manchester - 20%; Tyne&Wear - 12.5%; Scotland - 12.5%; Ireland - 25%; Mecklenburg-Schwerin - 12.5%; Somerset - 6.5%; Essex - 8%; Yorkshire - 3%

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    Quote Originally Posted by mxcrowe View Post
    It may just be coincidental, but the "cautious" settings, where they group certain sections back together, are actually the most accurate reflection of my known genealogy. They put me at:

    Northwest England-related ancestry - 42.2%
    Northumbria-related ancestry - 22.3%
    North Yorkshire - 8.1%
    Orkney-related ancestry - 6.7%
    Southeast England-related ancestry - 6.4%
    and Cornwall and North Wales at around 2% each

    *If* they had caught my (high confidence and relatively recent) line from Mecklenburg (Prussia), I would have been truly blown away by how close this matches what I know. However, for whatever reason, the Prussian component appears to hide in the English genes.

    So, for what it's worth, and I admit it could just be a happy coincidence, their cautious map is extremely accurate for me, including the strange bridging of areas that, at first glance, one would not necessarily believe are connected.
    I think my cautious results are best too. Perhaps the broader approach is best for some people in weeding out a bit of noise.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by mxcrowe View Post
    It may just be coincidental, but the "cautious" settings, where they group certain sections back together, are actually the most accurate reflection of my known genealogy. They put me at:

    Northwest England-related ancestry - 42.2%
    Northumbria-related ancestry - 22.3%
    North Yorkshire - 8.1%
    Orkney-related ancestry - 6.7%
    Southeast England-related ancestry - 6.4%
    and Cornwall and North Wales at around 2% each

    *If* they had caught my (high confidence and relatively recent) line from Mecklenburg (Prussia), I would have been truly blown away by how close this matches what I know. However, for whatever reason, the Prussian component appears to hide in the English genes.

    So, for what it's worth, and I admit it could just be a happy coincidence, their cautious map is extremely accurate for me, including the strange bridging of areas that, at first glance, one would not necessarily believe are connected.
    LDNA seems to work best for testers with most of their ancestry in north and west Britain. And cautious tends to bring in some of the Ireland and Scotland that are "missing" in the standard view.

    In my case the standard view is best. My cautious view "lost" all the "real" south Wales ancestry that had been identified in the standard view and pushed it into a South Wales Borders-related category that didn't include south Wales. So there are quirks in cautious and I think it is useful look at all three views.
    All 32 3xgreat grandparents were Welsh. Two 6xgreat grandparents from England and a few Irish or English surnames before 1800. Paper trail shows several C11th to C14th Anglo-Norman lines and C11th Norse-Irish lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    LDNA seems to work best for testers with most of their ancestry in north and west Britain. And cautious tends to bring in some of the Ireland and Scotland that are "missing" in the standard view.

    In my case the standard view is best. My cautious view "lost" all the "real" south Wales ancestry that had been identified in the standard view and pushed it into a South Wales Borders-related category that didn't include south Wales. So there are quirks in cautious and I think it is useful look at all three views.
    I'd like them to do more on Wales. The Borders category focuses on the east where I have Monmouthshire and Breconshire ancestry, while South Wales seems focused on the far west in the POBI dataset at least, which had almost no samples in between, and nothing in the middle of the country.

    EDIT: added map

    Screenshot_20180919-102545-352x248.png
    Last edited by JonikW; 09-19-2018 at 09:49 AM.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopLobster View Post
    How is Living DNA able to split Central, East, and South England into multiple sub-regions when the POBI project showed that these areas remained in one cluster even when the number of clusters was increased to 24? See image for what I am referring to.

    Living DNA vs POBI.png
    Just took another look at Wales. Given that Living DNA hasn't even sorted out Scotland and Ireland, I see no chance of them getting round to improving things though.

    Their current categories seem to offer a lot more than POBI itself because the Living DNA definitions cover the whole country and more. Here's a recap:

    "The North Wales signature roughly covers the areas of Anglesey, Gwynedd, Conwy, Wrexham and northern Powys.

    The unique southern signature is found in the modern counties of Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire and West Glamorgan.

    The areas of Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire, Powys and Gwent are collectively called the South Wales border."

    Perhaps they've added loads of quality samples as we were discussing at the top of this thread for England? Unlikely I suppose given what we've seen for Scottish and Irish testers.

    On their current regions, one thing that is interesting is how the Borders category shows that "Celtic" Welsh ancestry is still high along the English side, as has been pointed out before. It corresponds nicely with the old natural border having once been the Dee and Severn and suggests that this region, in going beyond modern political boundaries, shows real population structure that reflects this.

    I would really like to see proper sampling of Mid Wales, taking people who knew their ancestry beyond just four grandparents. Would it form its own cluster(s) or show the current North, South and/or Borders, I wonder. Of course early Powys included the Borders (well into modern England) and much of Mid Wales (map attached). Has anyone tested who can shed some local light?

    Screenshot_20180919-112433-432x370.png
    Last edited by JonikW; 09-19-2018 at 02:30 PM.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I think my cautious results are best too. Perhaps the broader approach is best for some people in weeding out a bit of noise.
    Yes, that is my sense of it, too. At what point does all our desire for regional specificity break down into silliness? So, the fact that the "cautious", broadest view fit my known genealogy data the best made sense to me; however, as Phoebe Watts points out: "LDNA seems to work best for testers with most of their ancestry in north and west Britain. And cautious tends to bring in some of the Ireland and Scotland that are "missing" in the standard view.

    In my case the standard view is best. My cautious view "lost" all the "real" south Wales ancestry that had been identified in the standard view and pushed it into a South Wales Borders-related category that didn't include south Wales. So there are quirks in cautious and I think it is useful look at all three views."
    These are good points and part of what worries me about being given, say, three different interpretations so I can pick the one that best fits. It all begins to sink into speculation and stacked interpretations.

    Despite the clear patterns that POBI discovered, probably to the surprise of many, at some point you just hit the limitations of meaningfulness when people are free to move around as time goes on. My ancestry shows periods where everyone stayed in the same area for relatively long periods (several generations) punctuated by sudden moves from one region to another, which I'm sure is fairly typical for most of us. I guess what I'm saying is that I think Living DNA's regional classification is at (or even beyond) what is actually meaningful.
    Latest paper trail:
    Lancashire/Manchester - 20%; Tyne&Wear - 12.5%; Scotland - 12.5%; Ireland - 25%; Mecklenburg-Schwerin - 12.5%; Somerset - 6.5%; Essex - 8%; Yorkshire - 3%

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