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Thread: Great Britain and Ireland Sub-Regions

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jshook View Post
    For whatever reason, I got about 8.5% South Wales Border (which they describe as Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire, Powys and Gwent), which was my 3rd largest region. But every Welsh ancestor I've found in my family tree is from the northern part of Wales (Conwy and Denbighshire primarily), which just didn't show up at all. It's certainly possible that it just washed out over time and that 8.5% is 100% English that they're picking up. But I'm skeptical. I also get a phantom 2.9% result from the neighboring Northwest England region when I have no known ancestors from that area. Make of that what you will.
    My North Wales shows up, but I get lower borders region than expected even though I know I have ancestors from that region (Shropshire near the border) and am assuming that could be part of what my NW England refers to. But until they get my Ulster figured out (as it's just missing) it's hard to say what's what. Some of my Ulster ancestors have English or possibly English names, but I doubt strongly that they were all just English.

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  3. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebe Watts View Post
    That's interesting. The western part of north Wales seems to be quite easily identified by LDNA as North Wales. A few of us with ancestry in Denbighshire and Flintshire have said it is reported as Northwest England, yours might be the same.
    I should also add that that Northwest England result becomes "Unassigned Great Britain" when you switch from Complete to Standard mode (as does my 4.9% Southeast England result.) It would appear that they're definitely not sure it's actually Northwest England.

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  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jshook View Post
    I should also add that that Northwest England result becomes "Unassigned Great Britain" when you switch from Complete to Standard mode (as does my 4.9% Southeast England result.) It would appear that they're definitely not sure it's actually Northwest England.
    Worth doing the comparison.

    For me complete and standard modes are basically identical. In those, my English is:

    13.1% SE England
    8.2% South England
    7.9% East Anglia
    5.3% Cornwall
    4.2% Devon
    2.3% South Central England
    (so somewhat southern biased, which I think is not unlikely in that I know a number of my 1600s ancestors were from Southern England and my dad's 1870 ancestor was half Essex/half Shropshire, and I have specific known ancestors from Suffolk and Devon).

    In addition, I have:

    10.1% NW England
    4.6% South Yorkshire
    2.9% Cumbria
    2.6% North Yorkshire
    1.7% Central England

    For Scotland/Ireland:

    1.3% Orkney and Shetland Islands (but this could be related to my actual Scandinavian)

    For Wales:

    6.2% North Wales (I'd put it at half of my known 1/8 Welsh, so looks good)
    3.8% South Wales (another 6.5% should be Montgomeryshire, so not sure where that would go, not really South).
    2.5% South Wales Border (as noted I have a decent amount of Shropshire, as well as the Montgomeryshire -- I also have likely but unknown Welsh from ancestors with likely Welsh names who settled in a part of Ohio (Gallia/Jackson counties) known for "Calvinistic" Welsh immigrants in the late 1700s, early 1800s).

    Rest not British Isles, according to LivingDNA.

    When I switch to Cautious, I get:

    27.9% South England related ancestry
    17.9% NW England related ancestry (higher)

    7.9% East Anglia (same)
    6.2% North Wales (same)
    5.3% Cornwall (same)
    3.8% South Wales (same)
    1.3% Orkney-related ancestry (same)

    5.6% GB and Ireland unassigned

    And then:

    12.2% NW Europe related ancestry unassigned (too low)
    1.8% Sardinian related ancestry (maybe, beats me)
    3.7% Europe unassigned

    3.7% NW Caucasus related unassigned (beats me)
    1.5% World, unassigned

    So interestingly my main English/Welsh categories change very little.

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  7. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    Worth doing the comparison.

    For me complete and standard modes are basically identical. In those, my English is:

    13.1% SE England
    8.2% South England
    7.9% East Anglia
    5.3% Cornwall
    4.2% Devon
    2.3% South Central England
    (so somewhat southern biased, which I think is not unlikely in that I know a number of my 1600s ancestors were from Southern England and my dad's 1870 ancestor was half Essex/half Shropshire, and I have specific known ancestors from Suffolk and Devon).

    In addition, I have:

    10.1% NW England
    4.6% South Yorkshire
    2.9% Cumbria
    2.6% North Yorkshire
    1.7% Central England

    For Scotland/Ireland:

    1.3% Orkney and Shetland Islands (but this could be related to my actual Scandinavian)

    For Wales:

    6.2% North Wales (I'd put it at half of my known 1/8 Welsh, so looks good)
    3.8% South Wales (another 6.5% should be Montgomeryshire, so not sure where that would go, not really South).
    2.5% South Wales Border (as noted I have a decent amount of Shropshire, as well as the Montgomeryshire -- I also have likely but unknown Welsh from ancestors with likely Welsh names who settled in a part of Ohio (Gallia/Jackson counties) known for "Calvinistic" Welsh immigrants in the late 1700s, early 1800s).

    Rest not British Isles, according to LivingDNA.

    When I switch to Cautious, I get:

    27.9% South England related ancestry
    17.9% NW England related ancestry (higher)

    7.9% East Anglia (same)
    6.2% North Wales (same)
    5.3% Cornwall (same)
    3.8% South Wales (same)
    1.3% Orkney-related ancestry (same)

    5.6% GB and Ireland unassigned

    And then:

    12.2% NW Europe related ancestry unassigned (too low)
    1.8% Sardinian related ancestry (maybe, beats me)
    3.7% Europe unassigned

    3.7% NW Caucasus related unassigned (beats me)
    1.5% World, unassigned

    So interestingly my main English/Welsh categories change very little.
    Yeah, I also don't want to make it sound like I'm unhappy with LivingDNA at all. Trying to breakdown any nation this finely is bound to be somewhat inexact. Their Top 2 groupings for me in Cautious mode (27.9% South Central England related and 18.7% North Yorkshire related) correspond extremely well with my known paper trail even if one can quibble about the exact percentages. The main issues for me have been:

    1. I'm pretty certain both my Southeast England (4.9%) and South England (6.2%) are reflective of my German ancestry, not English. For comparison, on 23andMe I'm now 14.7% German/French with the latest update. That's about what it should be. I got zero Germanic on LivingDNA and I don't have any known ancestors that match either the SE or S English regions.
    2. My Scottish is extremely understated unless I just didn't inherit a lot of Scottish DNA from relatively recent ancestors. Again, I'm skeptical of that.
    3. The missing North Welsh ancestry mentioned earlier.

    I also don't really grasp how the Cautious groupings work. My top two make total sense. And since Northwest Scotland at 6.4% was my only Scottish region, I get that it'd be a standalone. But my result lists Cumbria as both part of the North Yorkshire Related group AND also it's own 4.8% standalone result. My husband has similar oddities (getting 4.7% North Wales related ancestry when he gets zero North or South Wales in the Standard or Complete Modes and SW Scotland being included in both the NW-Scotland related group and the Cumbria related group.)
    Last edited by jshook; 10-02-2018 at 06:10 AM.

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    I'm not unhappy with it either, just excited to see how improving the German and Irish accuracy will affect mine.

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  11. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I'm not unhappy with it either, just excited to see how improving the German and Irish accuracy will affect mine.
    I think the position you describe is where most of us stand. Even the current LivingDNA results show more promise than either past or updated Ancestry or 23andMe, so it is only logical.... really all that remains is upside especially given the contrast between the current sample and those two groups from the two vital directions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I'm not unhappy with it either, just excited to see how improving the German and Irish accuracy will affect mine.
    I think the position you describe is where most of us stand. Even the current LivingDNA results show more promise than either past or updated Ancestry or 23andMe, so it is only logical.... really all that remains is upside especially given the contrast between the current sample and those two groups from the two vital directions...

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    Just sharing my own Standard vs. Caution Sub Regional results:

    Standard Sub-Region:

    Southeast England: 33.9%
    East Anglia: 8.9%
    South England: 8.4%
    Northumbria 8.3%
    Ireland: 4.1%
    Cornwall: 4%
    South Yorkshire: 3.4%
    Northwest Scotland 3.4%
    Aberdeenshire: 3%
    Lincolnshire: 2.7%
    Devon: 2.1%
    Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland: 1.7%
    Northwest England: 1.5%
    North Yorkshire: 1.3%
    Great Britain and Ireland (Unassigned): 3.6%

    Cautious Sub-Region:

    Devon-Related Ancestry: 48.3%
    North Yorkshire-Related Ancestry: 15.8%
    Ireland-Related Ancestry: 10.7%
    East Anglia: 8.9%
    Orkney-Related Ancestry: 3%
    Great Britain and Ireland (Unassigned): 3.6%

    So, right away I'm quite certain that my Southeast England is very inflated from my Southwest German heritage (I do have a Great-Great-Grandfather born in Kent however). East Anglia seems good as I have a Great-Grandmother born in Wormingford, Essex. South England is likely good too since there is ancestry way back from Christchurch, Dorset. The remainder is hard to figure how exactly accurate it is. Also: does it make sense that the sum of the parts that go on to comprise "Devon-Related Ancestry" (namely: Devon, Northumbria(?), and two other regions near Devon that I lack) would go on to comprise nearly half my ancestry when those elements add up to only just over 10% on Standard?

    Edit:
    Also, part 2: why does the "Ireland-Related Ancestry" Cautious Mode results only amount to 10.7% when it includes, not only Ireland and Western Scotland, but Southeast England too for some reason?
    Last edited by kujira692; 10-08-2018 at 11:32 PM.
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    Mother: Southeastern New York Settlers
    Paper Trail: Irish: 35%, English: 28%, German: 19%, French: 9%, Scottish: 7%, Dutch: 3%
    AncestryDNA: England, Wales & Northwestern Europe: 70%, Ireland and Scotland: 30%

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  16. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    This is off the top of my head but it was said that it takes an incredibly close examination to break the large red SE English cluster into separate regions. While some Living DNA test results were able to successfully split the ancestry of some into regions within it for others it was not able to. I personally think the scale is too fine. For all we know someone from a place like Hampshire could have more Germanic ancestry than someone from East Anglia due to later migrations from the continent like France or Belgium. Norfolk's collection of aDNA results reveals a very French-like autosomal picture and for an East Anglian clusters very far from the Germanic types. It's difficult to say with certainty at the time being.

    Edit: This youtube video shows and explains how the POBI samples break down into their clusters:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ANNHMzmxlI
    Starts around 16:40
    He says the large red cluster never splits even at 53 clusters. I think I remember hearing somewhere that if you go past this level it does eventually split but at that point the differences are incredibly tiny.

    The Irish DNA Atlas has one large English cluster (blue on their map instead of read) at K30 but at K48 four English clusters split off from this but they are all very tiny - two have 1 individual and the other two have only 3. So two analyses conclude that it's a pretty darn genetically homogeneous area.
    Sorry, not relevant to the LivingDNA discussion here, but I'm just quite astonished that in the video he gives the date of the 'Anglo-Saxon' contribution to the population as 858CE! Garrett says this makes some sense as the intermixing would not occur upon initial arrival (from 400CE onwards), but would occur after years of settlement. But a whole 300-400 years of little to no intermixing between Britons and Germanic settlers? This flies in the face of the emergent archaeological consensus.

    I'm almost tempted to say that this study shows that the Germanic contributions to British DNA cannot be definitively pinpointed to a specific period of mass migration, and that a trickle of migrations occurred throughout the Isles history simply because of proximity; with the post-Roman/early medieval 'migration period' Germanic settlement of England being just one of many.

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  18. #80
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    The recent Alice Roberts BBC show had someone from the POBI study mention that the reason the big red cluster exists isn't because it's the Anglo-Saxon cluster but because this is where the Romans laid the most roads, meaning it was easier for people to move around and intermingle than in less Roman-influenced parts of England.

    Also, I found a rather large document (which I took to be a pre-thesis) when searching the internet for studies on the influence of the Franks in England, and in summary, yes there is evidence from Kent to Wiltshire.
    My ancestry: 53% S Eng, 2% N Eng, 39% Ire, 6% S Wal
    LivingDNA: 53% S Eng, 7% E Anglia, 15% SW Scot, 9% S Wal, 8% Brit Isles, 4.5% Basque/Sardinian/Tuscan, 3.4% Chechen/Indian/Kurdish

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