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Thread: Cassidy's Thesis - Implications for L21, DF27 etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?
    Thanks you.

    Please report back to AG.
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    Iíve mentioned before that DF27 and U152 seem to have different concentrations in England with DF27 more prevalent along the English Channel facing counties and U152 along the North Sea counties. Iíve wondered if this was because the bulk of DF27 entered England via Brittany and Normandy while the bulk of U152 entered from Pas-de-Calais and further east?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That doesn't seem likely to me. I think it could be that some I2a came up to SW Ireland with an early Iberian, collective tomb type of Bell Beaker.

    The Rathlin Island guys were pretty high in steppe dna. They were L21 and buried in single graves.
    But the abstract seems to insinuate that both had steppe ancestry, but the SW had more Neolithic. We know the early Iberians had no steppe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    But the abstract seems to insinuate that both had steppe ancestry, but the SW had more Neolithic. We know the early Iberians had no steppe.
    I don't know. It says the following:

    Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east.
    Kind of an enigmatic passage.

    It sounds like perhaps by "haplotypic affinities" they mean different haplogroups. Exactly what "distributions of steppe-related introgression" means, I'm not sure. It could just mean that all possessed steppe dna but at different levels, or it could mean that steppe dna wasn't present in every group everywhere.

    I would be surprised if some clades of L21 came to Ireland from the Atlantic facade, while others came from north central Europe, and that the former had much more Neolithic farmer dna than the latter. It seems to me much more likely that the immigrants from the Atlantic facade had different "haploypic affinities" from those that came from north central Europe, i.e., those from the Atlantic weren't L21 and maybe weren't even R1b.

    I'm not at home, so I don't have access to all my stuff, but I recall that one of the samples from the Boscombe Bowmen burial in England was R1b-L151 but L21-, and curiously that was the sample with the lowest level of steppe dna of all the British samples. Meanwhile, one of the other samples from the same burial was L21+ and by contrast had very high steppe dna.

    I also recall reading that most of Irish Beaker is believed to have come there by way of Britain rather than by way of the Atlantic.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I don't know. It says the following:



    Kind of an enigmatic passage.

    It sounds like perhaps by "haplotypic affinities" they mean different haplogroups. Exactly what "distributions of steppe-related introgression" means, I'm not sure. It could just mean that all possessed steppe dna but at different levels, or it could mean that steppe dna wasn't present in every group everywhere.

    I would be surprised if some clades of L21 came to Ireland from the Atlantic facade, while others came from north central Europe, and that the former had much more Neolithic farmer dna than the latter. It seems to me much more likely that the immigrants from the Atlantic facade had different "haploypic affinities" from those that came from north central Europe, i.e., those from the Atlantic weren't L21 and maybe weren't even R1b.

    I'm not at home, so I don't have access to all my stuff, but I recall that one of the samples from the Boscombe Bowmen burial in England was R1b-L151 but L21-, and curiously that was the sample with the lowest level of steppe dna of all the British samples. Meanwhile, one of the other samples from the same burial was L21+ and by contrast had very high steppe dna.

    I also recall reading that most of Irish Beaker is believed to have come there by way of Britain rather than by way of the Atlantic.
    Yeah, my best guess is that I2a2 and/or I2a1 will be found in the SW will no or little steppe ancestry. If P312 is in play, my guess is that R-L21 took the Low Countries > Britain > East Ireland route and perhaps as R-DF27 continued to mix with Neolithic types in northern France they lost some steppe ancestry and crossed somewhere near Brittany.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Yeah, my best guess is that I2a2 and/or I2a1 will be found in the SW will no or little steppe ancestry. If P312 is in play, my guess is that R-L21 took the Low Countries > Britain > East Ireland route and perhaps as R-DF27 continued to mix with Neolithic types in northern France they lost some steppe ancestry and crossed somewhere near Brittany.
    I think without aDna showing DF27 in Ireland at an early date, it would be tough to prove. I posted the Busby data, because it does show P312xL21xU152 at around 7% in West and South/West Ireland, if we assume most of this is DF27. Under ZZ12 half of DF27 in Alex's tree, there is an Irish cluster with 9 different distinct Irish surnames, A641. According to Alex's tree this block has a formed date of 152 B.C. One block up is FGC22202, which has a formed date of 1365 B.C., but has two additional surnames without flags and may or may not be Irish. More interesting, though, is the Irish DF17 cluster, with Mulvihill being FGC14115, formed around 143 B.C., by himself. Then the parent block to his, FGC14117, formed around 664 B.C,, which has Durkin, Meehan, and Connell. I believe all four are linked to Connacht. There are quite a few scattered DF27 Irish kits, but these are the two main clusters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?
    I'm hoping to go, but it might be touch and go. I have to go to Amsterdam for DNS-OARC/Centr-Tech + Ripe 77 meetings for work, so there from Friday the 12th to Thursday the 18th. Will probably just take the Friday off work and go to the meeting hopefully.
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    I'm a little surprised DF27+ is even that high in Ireland (from Myres 2011), maybe it's just specific branches, because I'm fairly certain Z209 isn't very common at all. L21+ is still the most numerous in Britanny, so assuming an Atlantic route for some, maybe there was a minority of ZZ12 that tagged along. DF17+, the brother to Z209+ seems to match a more "Celtic" distribution, I believe both brothers so to speak, are linked to the spread of Celtic culture, despite the fact that U152+ seems to be the one that keeps turning up in aDNA.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 09-19-2018 at 04:23 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
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    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
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    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I'm a little surprised DF27+ is even that high in Ireland (from Myres 2011), maybe it's just specific branches, because I'm fairly certain Z209 isn't very common at all. L21+ is still the most numerous in Britanny, so assuming an Atlantic route for some, maybe there was a minority of ZZ12 that tagged along. DF17+, the brother to Z209+ seems to match a more "Celtic" distribution, I believe both brothers so to speak, are linked to the spread of Celtic culture, despite the fact that U152+ seems to be the one that keeps turning up in aDNA.
    Yeah, except that probably much of the L21 in Bretagne arrived there during the exodus from Britain in the immediate post-Roman period and may not have been there in the Late Neolithic/EBA.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    I intend to go an see Lara Cassidy talk on 19 October at GGI. I am not able to rearrange my work for her talk on Friday morning in Croke Park - is anyone else going?
    I have a conflicting conference on the Friday but will definately be at GGI2018.

    I am managing an Egan sample which is DF27 and part of the Breassal Breac cluster of Lower Ormond with names including Kennedy, Ryan, Egan, Carroll, Gormon. So DF27 in Ireland in Ireland clusters with traditional Gaelic surnames.
    Last edited by Heber; 09-20-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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