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Thread: New Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    Working theory: The modern Irish population is the result of admixture between a Beaker population that settled near Stonehenge, and a population similar to that found on the west coast of Scotland in the Neolithic.

    A number of Beakers from southern England plot north of the Beakers from Tuithoorn-Oostwoud; in fact, Boscombe Bowman I2417 is the most northerly of all Beaker samples in Global 25 and plots north of all Corded Ware samples, except those from the Baltics.

    This would make Stonehenge the source of the Beaker expansions (!).

    Attachment 29827

    Attachment 29828

    This would eliminate the need to find an external source of southern ancestry in the modern Irish population. As can be seen from the plot, very few Beaker samples plot south of the modern Irish population, leaving the west Scotland Neolithic samples as a reasonable source.

    Y-DNA of the two Oban samples was I2a2a, which exists at a British & Irish maximum in the modern Northern Irish & Scottish populations.

    Attachment 29829

    As an aside, Central Europe Beakers can't be the source of Beaker ancestry in the modern Irish as Central Europe Beakers plot east of the modern Irish and there wasn't a pre-Beaker population that plots west of the modern Irish for the Central Europe Beakers to have admixed into. The Britain & Ireland Neolithic population was south of the modern Irish, as the plot shows.

    The only way this would work is if the modern Irish were half Central Europe Beaker and half sea people...
    I think archaeology suggests two separate but not very chronogically apart inputs into Ireland. The first beaker group c. 2400BC probably came from northern France via southern England and they were involved both in the mining at Ross Island, manufactue of axes etc, transportation and acting as middlemen for its distribution in Britain and the continental part of the English channel. As bronze appeared c. 2200BC, the Ross Island mine became obsolete after a few centuries. The 2nd group who still used beaker as domestic ware but buried with food vessels probably came from Scotland/extreme north of England c. 2200/2100BC. However, we know from burials around Stonehenge that the southern group was L21 rich and we also know the same for food vessels because of Rathlin. I actually suspect the impact of the 2nd group may have been greater. The Rathlin food vessel burial was very northern. I think the earlier beaker group may have been a little less so but its hard to say as the L21 Boscome bowman fragment was v high steppe too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    Lasting impact of Blätterhöhle MN (or similar) perhaps? I tried to make a plot showing the cline from Yamnaya Samara to Blätterhöhle MN but it needs work before sharing.
    @Capitalis, what could be at stake is this. As said mom has only ancestry from a former Funnelbeaker hotspot (Hondsrug/Drenthe).

    FrankN wrote in a blog (sept 2018) this (he called it in German the Tiefstich-expansion):

    Whatever the origin, from the 35th cBC onwards Megalithicism gained an enormous dynamic. By the late 34th century, it had reached East Frisia, and Drenthe in the NE Netherlands (the concentration of Helgoland flint in Drenthe hints at a possibly arrival by boat), as well as Scania and Central Mecklenburg.
    What is pretty understandable for sandy soil Drenthe is this from a study done by Seweryn Rzepecki and Lech Czerniak

    In our opinion, it was sandy soil agriculture that was one of the important factors that caused the expansion of farming societies to the north, being a turning point in long-term hunter-gatherer contacts with Danubian farmers. To be more precise, the transition from light soil farming, in connection with the slash and burn technique, and probably from the beginning with ploughing, opened the way for not only the expansion northwards but also the occupation on areas of sandy soils surrounded by enclaves, which for a long time had been inhabited by Danubian farmers (e.g. Greater Poland). It was just migrations of small TRB groups towards the north to Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Jutland and Scania that fundamentally changed earlier relations between farmers and hunter-gatherers, leading to a cultural transformation of the latter.
    The genetic effect? Again FrankN:

    More plausible, however, is a sizeable SHG element picked up in the SW Baltic Sea area, from where the Tiefstich expansion originated (and from where we unfortunately don’t have any aDNA, neither Erteboelle nor TRB, so far).
    The Sorsum sample additionally suggests a sizeable WHG/SHG component in the TRB Tiefstichkeramik sphere that isn’t fully represented by the Gökhem samples, and most likely represents Swifterband-Erteboelle adstrate. In summary, TRB-Tiefstichkeramik may represent the fusion of both of the EEF streams (Mediterranean/Cardial, and Danubian/LBK, including their differing HG substrate), with North European post-Kongemose HG traditions.
    And indeed mom shows a Baltic/Scandic HG pattern that is congruent with the Swedish (that other Ertebolle/ Funnelbeaker hotspot and derivate of the Tiefstich expansion ):





    Any thoughts or plots about this are very welcome Capitalis!
    Last edited by Finn; 04-16-2019 at 09:37 AM.

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    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
    "fit": 4.3501,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 48.6,
    "Germany_MN": 43,
    "Narva_Estonia": 8.4,


    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
    "fit": 2.6766,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 60,
    "Germany_MN": 38.2,
    "Narva_Estonia": 1.8,





    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
    "fit": 4.4742,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 52.2,
    "Germany_MN": 42.4,
    "WHG": 5.4,


    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
    "fit": 2.6715,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 60.6,
    "Germany_MN": 38.6,
    "WHG": 0.8,





    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
    "fit": 4.4743,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 49.4,
    "Germany_MN": 43.4,
    "Sweden_Motala_HG": 7.2,


    "sample": "Custom:AGUser_firemonkey",
    "fit": 2.6333,
    "Yamnaya_Samara": 60.6,
    "Germany_MN": 39.4,
    "Sweden_Motala_HG": 0,
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I think archaeology suggests two separate but not very chronogically apart inputs into Ireland. The first beaker group c. 2400BC probably came from northern France via southern England and they were involved both in the mining at Ross Island, manufactue of axes etc, transportation and acting as middlemen for its distribution in Britain and the continental part of the English channel. As bronze appeared c. 2200BC, the Ross Island mine became obsolete after a few centuries. The 2nd group who still used beaker as domestic ware but buried with food vessels probably came from Scotland/extreme north of England c. 2200/2100BC. However, we know from burials around Stonehenge that the southern group was L21 rich and we also know the same for food vessels because of Rathlin. I actually suspect the impact of the 2nd group may have been greater. The Rathlin food vessel burial was very northern. I think the earlier beaker group may have been a little less so but its hard to say as the L21 Boscome bowman fragment was v high steppe too.
    Thanks. I'm just doing my best with the samples available because this interests me and I don't always agree with the interpretations at the Eurogenes blog, so I try to think through it for myself.

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    I wasn't suggesting NW Europeans were that heavily impacted by Blätterhöhle (if at all); it only needs a touch of Blätterhöhle for Finn's family to have higher WHG, as Blätterhöhle were ~50-50 WHG-ANF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    Any thoughts or plots about this are very welcome Capitalis!
    No thoughts as this is way outside my reading of ancient DNA papers, but here's a plot which I'll leave you to interpret. If you want other samples added I'll make another plot.

    Attachment 29834

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I wish I could make such graphics, insightful thanks!

    I want to add (agree my preoccupation of the last week) that subregional differences can have an effect too....My both parents have kind of stocky ancestry from different subregions of the North Dutch area. With nation building and (social) mobility this is less and less the case. But ok.

    What I see in every, PCA that my mother's deviation is a significant higher HG, somewhat higher ENF and for someone from NW Euro a lowered Steppe. Long time it dazzled me a bit. But now I think I found the key in the fact that her auDNA is completely congruent with a Funnelbeaker pocket. And Funnelbeakers are (see Gokhem or Saxtorp Sweden) a HG/ENF mixture.....

    I'm convinced that this still has it's impact. It gives her in lots of PCA kind of stuff a push to NE Europe....

    I guess these things matter. But who knows I'm making fuzz about something that in reality could be...totally different
    I think your family is very NW European, rather than very NE European, but maybe other plots you have seen look different to my LDA plot.

    Otherwise, your interpretation is spot on for my LDA plot: your family is closer to Blätterhöhle MN than all other modern Dutch, and so furthest from Yamnaya. This leads to higher ANF/WHG and lower Steppe in your admixture.

    Mystery solved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    I think your family is very NW European, rather than very NE European, but maybe other plots you have seen look different to my LDA plot.

    Otherwise, your interpretation is spot on for my LDA plot: your family is closer to Blätterhöhle MN than all other modern Dutch, and so furthest from Yamnaya. This leads to higher ANF/WHG and lower Steppe in your admixture.

    Mystery solved?
    NW European but especially in mom's case a relative high HG component (compared to most NW Europeans). In most PCA's mom (and I) get a NE touch.

    The key is IMO not Blatterhole but Funnelbeaker c.q. Ertebolle. That's most probably the abrevation (to Dutch average and NW European)..

    See this from Karsten Wentink, Ceci N'est Pas Une Hache: Neolithic Depositions in the Northern Netherlands:




    Here a pic, the red dots line between Groningen and Meppen is totally my mothers auDNA region (the Funnelbeaker hotspot of the Netherlands).
    You see in the southwest corner Blatterhole, just out of the Funnelbeaker reach.....

    Last edited by Finn; 04-16-2019 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    No thoughts as this is way outside my reading of ancient DNA papers, but here's a plot which I'll leave you to interpret. If you want other samples added I'll make another plot.

    Attachment 29834

    Thanks it's aprreciated! I guess it's a matter of fine tuning. We have no TRB-West or Ertebolle samples unfortunately.

    Interpretation see^^^ about 3500-3400 BC the auDNA region of my mother is 'colonalized' by incoming Funnelbeakers they were rooted in the SW Baltic (South Scandic room), so the Funnelebekaer came with a 'bunch of' Ertbolle HG genes, I can understand the confusion with Blatterhole.
    Last edited by Finn; 04-16-2019 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Thanks it's aprreciated! I guess it's a matter of fine tuning. We have no TRB-West or Ertebolle samples unfortunately.

    Interpretation see^^^ about 3500-3400 BC the auDNA region of my mother is 'colonalized' by incoming Funnelbeakers they were rooted in the SW Baltic (South Scandic room), so the Funnelebekaer came with a 'bunch of' Ertbolle HG genes, I can understand the confusion with Blatterhole.
    As usual, we do not agree. I don't think it is easy to confuse Blätterhöhle MN with Funnelbeaker samples.

    Your family does not pull towards SHG or Narva, nor towards CW Baltic. To me your family are the most NW European of all Dutch.

    I removed Blätterhöhle MN and added TRB Sweden and Poland. I can't see the connection to your family personally, just as I can't see Irish people being descended from Central Europeans.

    Last post on this.

    Attachment 29836

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