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Thread: New Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA

  1. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    According to the PCA and admixture chart from the GLS&I the Tayside-Fife cluster had the most of this anglo-continental ancestry you speak of, but this cluster also contains parts of Perthshire which were Gaelic speaking into the 1900s, IIRC, including one sample which plotted near to the location of the last native Gael of Perthshire. So these continental-anglo types must have worked their way inland, but in some areas we saw the spread of middle English and in others Gaelic remained. I think that's quite interesting.. all taking place in the same cluster.
    Yeah. The same phenomenon of newcomers at the fringes of the (generally better) lands they settled giving up English/French in favour of Gaelic seen in Ireland occurred in Scotland though on a more limited scale. Hence you get several highland clans who were very much Gaelic in terms of language and much of their culture but whose leader (theoretical ancestor - though often actually not) were of Norman, Breton or Flemish origin (not to mention the Norse who switched to Gaelic). They are the equivalent of the Cambro-Norman descended lords in Ireland who went entirely native and formed Gaelic speaking clans (probably by a mixture of having many descendants and absorbing other clans who took their name). In both cases there were some feudal aspects retained in these Gaelicised 'Norman' clans.

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  3. #1532
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yeah. The same phenomenon of newcomers at the fringes of the (generally better) lands they settled giving up English/French in favour of Gaelic seen in Ireland occurred in Scotland though on a more limited scale. Hence you get several highland clans who were very much Gaelic in terms of language and much of their culture but whose leader (theoretical ancestor - though often actually not) were of Norman, Breton or Flemish origin (not to mention the Norse who switched to Gaelic). They are the equivalent of the Cambro-Norman descended lords in Ireland who went entirely native and formed Gaelic speaking clans (probably by a mixture of having many descendants and absorbing other clans who took their name). In both cases there were some feudal aspects retained in these Gaelicised 'Norman' clans.
    That's quite cool. I'm particularly interested in this cluster as the areas covered by it cover approximately the areas where my dad's grandfather's people came from - mostly lowland Perthshire.
    This entire journey of DNA and genealogy has really been transformative. I came into this as a fan of all things Gaelic, and I still am, but my genetics and my genealogy certainly don't resemble the Irish, particularly the Munster Irish who were sort of the holy grail for me when this all started, (incorrect family history of ancestors from county cork who turned out to be lowland Scottish planters) followed by hebridean Scots (wrong "kilmuir" was listed - I thought i was a descendant of people from Skye at one time but it turned out to be Easter Ross) so it turned out that against my wishes, my insular celtic ancestors were lowlanders in northern ireland and descendants of the norman/flemish migrants in central Scotland. My 4th great grandfather from Easter Ross was probably more the descendant of Picts rather than my beloved Gaels. My Welsh speaking great grandmother's ancestors were entirely of English origin.

    Nothing turned out as I had wished.

    But, that disappointment led to the discovery of fascinating histories and pride in my ancestors from different perspectives, what started as a love of Gaelic (Well I'll always adore Scottish Gaelic of course) has led me to my current fascination with Norman French, and the interesting language of Jersey. I'm sure it will take me to some other places too.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, Eastern German 12.5%, Eastern European (Likely Polish possibly including Romanian) 12.5%, French 7.81%, Native American (Saulteaux and Assiniboine) 2.34%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be traced with certainty. With certainty, there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English.

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  5. #1533
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Thanks for doing that, so it's as I interpreted then
    I read that to mean how I interpreted it. Based on drift and you have to just have NW Euro populations because other populations will make NW Euros plot more together or indistinguishable. That's what I got out of it.

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  7. #1534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    I read that to mean how I interpreted it. Based on drift and you have to just have NW Euro populations because other populations will make NW Euros plot more together or indistinguishable. That's what I got out of it.
    Another example of the English language getting in the way of scientific understanding.

    I interpreted what he said as that removal of the NE Euros (or large numbers of them, along with other S Euro groups) relative to oversampling of NW Euros (specifically Ireland and Britain) allows us to visualise a form of NW Euro drift/substructure, and more specifically Ireland and Britain's drift/structure in the initial PCA, before other samples are added. So, yes, the initial PCA produces an Isles specific structure,which is then leveraged to separate out other NW populations. If we were to oversample Scandinavia relative to surrounding regions, for example, this may allow us to observe a 'germanic' substructure, and we could examine this influence on other surrounding N European regions, hypothetically.......

    Perhaps, yourself and sktibo were saying the same thing really?
    Last edited by jadegreg; 10-18-2020 at 10:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    Another example of the English language getting in the way of scientific understanding.

    I interpreted what he said as that removal of the NE Euros (or large numbers of them, along with other S Euro groups) relative to oversampling of NW Euros (specifically Ireland and Britain) allows us to visualise a form of NW Euro drift/substructure, and more specifically Ireland and Britain's drift/structure in the initial PCA, before other samples are added. So, yes, the initial PCA produces an Isles specific structure,which is then leveraged to separate out other NW populations. If we were to oversample Scandinavia relative to surrounding regions, for example, this may allow us to observe a 'germanic' substructure, and we could examine this influence on other surrounding N European regions, hypothetically.......

    Perhaps, yourself and sktibo were saying the same thing really?
    Yes I think we are saying the same thing. All populations are a bit drifted though and I think Norwegians would also suffer from drift. What I've always noticed though that in genetic plots Northwestern Europeans all form a cluster. This is a bit outside this topic but if you look at plots most of Spain is more isolated than any Northwestern European and also most of Italy. So whatever is happening in Northwestern Europe there must have always been some gene flow to make them plot like that.

    I would love to hear other people's take on this?





    You can also see this in genetic distance with populations.

    I guess it all depends on what you look at. I think if you look at populations some of it is based on geography. I think Scandinavians and Germanics will have more influences from their neighbours of course. So Scandinavians will have more Baltic influence than Irish for example. Germans of course are very diverse and a large population. They have multiple influences because of their location in Europe.

    It's all very interesting to me.

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  11. #1536
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    Well it makes sense. We all look the same by phenotype despite being different ethnically.

    Southern English can look different sometimes.
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 10-18-2020 at 12:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Southern English can look different sometimes.
    Thankfully, the horns, the forked tongue and cloven hooves are becoming less common...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Yes I think we are saying the same thing. All populations are a bit drifted though and I think Norwegians would also suffer from drift. What I've always noticed though that in genetic plots Northwestern Europeans all form a cluster. This is a bit outside this topic but if you look at plots most of Spain is more isolated than any Northwestern European and also most of Italy. So whatever is happening in Northwestern Europe there must have always been some gene flow to make them plot like that.

    I would love to hear other people's take on this?

    .

    Well, most of NW Europe's been in cultural contact since the BBC/SGC hasn't it? Possibly earlier? And obviously, as has been said on here many times we're pretty much all BBC/SGC, whom were a fairly homogenous bunch, and from what I've seen differences do not dramatically respect modern geography. IIRC, the only periods of isolation were during the IA, which was longer for some groups than others (Irish, Norwegians?), which may explain their relative drifts to a degree. Obviously a number of these groups that underwent drift in the IA, got shifted about from when they interacted in varying quantities during late IA, Roman Period, particularly Migration period and through to the modern period; probably pushing or pulling their positions about in genetic space, as well as altering their genetic surface area. All in all, NW Europe was probably more heterogenous for only a short period of time before be coming more homogenous again.... Though take this with a grain of salt, as my knowledge of ancient history is poor to say the least........

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    I have a question, related to this thread:
    From where Irish and Brits are scoring 21-25% Baltic DNA, on K13?
    It seems R1B bearers that come in Britain and Ireland had plenty of Baltic.Not possible, to have 23-25% Baltic DNA, brought
    by Vikings, in Ireland, even if 700-1000 AD Vikings were more Eastern Shifted than our days Danes,Swedes,Norwegians.
    And from where Scandos are scoring so much North Atlantic, on K13?
    I was expecting Swedes,at least, to score more Baltic on K13, than North Atlantic, but is not like that.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 10-18-2020 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
    Yes I think we are saying the same thing. All populations are a bit drifted though and I think Norwegians would also suffer from drift. What I've always noticed though that in genetic plots Northwestern Europeans all form a cluster. This is a bit outside this topic but if you look at plots most of Spain is more isolated than any Northwestern European and also most of Italy. So whatever is happening in Northwestern Europe there must have always been some gene flow to make them plot like that.

    I would love to hear other people's take on this?





    You can also see this in genetic distance with populations.

    I guess it all depends on what you look at. I think if you look at populations some of it is based on geography. I think Scandinavians and Germanics will have more influences from their neighbours of course. So Scandinavians will have more Baltic influence than Irish for example. Germans of course are very diverse and a large population. They have multiple influences because of their location in Europe.

    It's all very interesting to me.
    My impression of your 'case' is that you are lesser drifted than some other Irish, in other words: you are closer to the original Beakers. And this original Beakers come in some respect close to the Anglo-Saxons and Scandics.

    See this plot of Davidski, especially the position of Rathlin regarding the Scandics/Anglo-Saxons
    :
    Last edited by Finn; 10-18-2020 at 03:07 PM.

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