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Thread: New Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA

  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert1 View Post
    I just got my Living DNA PCA. Interestingly my more Anglo-Saxon English paternal aunt plots almost exactly the same as before with her FTDNA raw data file but my more Welsh and Scot Mother and I shift quite a bit from our FTDNA plots!

    Living DNA raw data file
    Attachment 26958


    FTDNA raw data file
    Attachment 26959

    The question is, which one is more accurate? I’ve always heard that FT’s raw data is better. On the other hand, LDNA’s analysis of my raw data is noticeably more accurate than FT’s is. As far as accuracy is concerned, FT now falls behind LDNA and Ancestry, which are both pretty much in line. While FT is off by approximately 10%. Although, that may be entirely analytical, for all I know.

    I think I would be inclined to trust FT’s data more than their analysis.
    Last edited by JMcB; 11-08-2018 at 06:33 PM.
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 900 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 1030 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1550 AD).

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  3. #622
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    R1b>L513>A7> BY11186
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    Scotland Wales Ireland England Germany Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    The question is, which one is more accurate? I’ve always heard that FT’s raw data is better. On the hand, LDNA’s analysis of my raw data is noticeably more accurate than FT’s is. As far as accuracy is concerned, FT now falls behind LDNA and Ancestry, which are both pretty much in line. While FT is off by approximately 10%. Although, that may be entirely analytical, for all I know.

    I think I would be inclined to trust FT’s data more than their analysis.
    JMcB, I agree. And that's a great way to phrase it, "I would be inclined to trust FT’s data more than their analysis".

    I really didn't expect Living DNA raw data to perform better than FTDNA raw data in this PCA but it was interesting to find out for sure. Anyway, Living DNA pulled my Mother and me toward Orcadian and away from Welsh and Scottish plots using FTDNA raw data. Living DNA pulled my paternal aunt a bit more toward Dutch and away from English. All three FTDNA plots agree more with known ancestry.

    Living DNA's ancestry estimates for my family are very good, better than any other commercial testing site. They certainly know how to analyze their own raw data and just need better reference populations now. And the new Sirius chip will be interesting.
     
    Estimated ancestry after reviewing Ancestry.com, 23&Me, FTDNA My Origins, Living DNA and known family history:
    English 32%, Scottish 27%, Welsh 20%, Irish 16%, German/Netherlands/French 4%, Danish 1%

    Y-DNA leads to Isle of Skye, Scottish Highlands: R1b>M343>L278>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L151/L11>P312>Z290>L21/M529>DF13>L513/DF1>S5668>A7>Z21253> S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)

    MTDNA leads to Glamorganshire, South Wales: K1a4a1f

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  5. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert1 View Post
    JMcB, I agree. And that's a great way to phrase it, "I would be inclined to trust FT’s data more than their analysis".

    I really didn't expect Living DNA raw data to perform better than FTDNA raw data in this PCA but it was interesting to find out for sure. Anyway, Living DNA pulled my Mother and me toward Orcadian and away from Welsh and Scottish plots using FTDNA raw data. Living DNA pulled my paternal aunt a bit more toward Dutch and away from English. All three FTDNA plots agree more with known ancestry.

    Living DNA's ancestry estimates for my family are very good, better than any other commercial testing site. They certainly know how to analyze their own raw data and just need better reference populations now. And the new Sirius chip will be interesting.
    It is an interesting experiment and it’s one I’ve been considering myself. Although, not necessarily with this PCA. I’m curious, when you had the plots done, did you ask David what he thought concerning any possible differences?
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 900 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 1030 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1550 AD).

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  7. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    It is an interesting experiment and it’s one I’ve been considering myself. Although, not necessarily with this PCA. I’m curious, when you had the plots done, did you ask David what he thought concerning any possible differences?
    I didn't ask but should have. I don't know how interested Davidski would be in rehashing this - many really, really smart people here often have said use FTDNA raw data if possible. His Global 25 PCA probably would be a better comparison.
     
    Estimated ancestry after reviewing Ancestry.com, 23&Me, FTDNA My Origins, Living DNA and known family history:
    English 32%, Scottish 27%, Welsh 20%, Irish 16%, German/Netherlands/French 4%, Danish 1%

    Y-DNA leads to Isle of Skye, Scottish Highlands: R1b>M343>L278>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>L151/L11>P312>Z290>L21/M529>DF13>L513/DF1>S5668>A7>Z21253> S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)

    MTDNA leads to Glamorganshire, South Wales: K1a4a1f

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  9. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theconqueror View Post
    27:

    Kit Num: Z732151
    Threshold of components set to 1.000
    Threshold of method set to 0.25%
    Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
    Gedmatch.Com
    Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
    This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
    Questions about results should be sent to him at: Alexandr.Burnashev@gmail.com
    Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
    Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Admix Results (sorted):

    #
    Population
    Percent
    1
    North_Atlantic
    32.90
    2
    Baltic
    17.83
    3
    East_Med
    17.24
    4
    West_Med
    15.83
    5
    West_Asian
    11.26
    6
    Red_Sea
    2.12
    7
    Amerindian
    1.86


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Romanian @ 11.050030
    2 Serbian @ 11.580654
    3 North_Italian @ 12.780684
    4 Bulgarian @ 13.337072
    5 French @ 14.116697
    6 Tuscan @ 15.023434
    7 West_German @ 15.081306
    8 Portuguese @ 16.113302
    9 Austrian @ 16.342375
    10 Hungarian @ 16.424616
    11 South_Dutch @ 16.917740
    12 Greek_Thessaly @ 16.980461
    13 Spanish_Cataluna @ 17.092894
    14 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.321548
    15 Spanish_Extremadura @ 17.373768
    16 Spanish_Murcia @ 18.031563
    17 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 18.126534
    18 Italian_Abruzzo @ 18.657328
    19 Spanish_Valencia @ 18.691931
    20 Moldavian @ 19.331829

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Norwegian +50% South_Italian @ 2.291645


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Central_Greek +25% North_German +25% Southeast_English @ 2.195521


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Central_Greek + North_German + Norwegian + South_Italian @ 1.905621
    2 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Irish + Southeast_English @ 1.954491
    3 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 1.965723
    4 Central_Greek + North_Dutch + North_German + South_Italian @ 2.046611
    5 Central_Greek + Italian_Abruzzo + Norwegian + West_German @ 2.071045
    6 Hungarian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo + West_Scottish @ 2.098925
    7 Central_Greek + Italian_Abruzzo + Swedish + West_German @ 2.108251
    8 Hungarian + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.112915
    9 Central_Greek + Danish + North_German + South_Italian @ 2.133219
    10 Norwegian + South_Italian + South_Italian + Swedish @ 2.146591
    11 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.152848
    12 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.168836
    13 Italian_Abruzzo + North_German + North_German + South_Italian @ 2.169391
    14 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.173156
    15 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Irish + Southwest_English @ 2.188537
    16 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + North_German + Southeast_English @ 2.195521
    17 North_German + Norwegian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.204023
    18 Central_Greek + Danish + Norwegian + South_Italian @ 2.207284
    19 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + North_Dutch + North_German @ 2.208631
    20 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Norwegian + West_German @ 2.220529
    Extremely similar to my own K13 results I might add, just add more East Med and Red Sea and less West Asian and Baltic and you basically have my results:

     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 33.82
    2 East_Med 18.32
    3 West_Med 16.89
    4 Baltic 16.08
    5 West_Asian 8.39
    6 Red_Sea 3.46
    7 South_Asian 2.53
    8 Northeast_African 0.32
    9 East_Asian 0.15
    10 Oceanian 0.04

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 North_Italian 9.36
    2 French 11.08
    3 Romanian 11.61
    4 Tuscan 11.62
    5 Portuguese 11.82
    6 Serbian 12.06
    7 Spanish_Galicia 12.83
    8 Spanish_Cataluna 12.95
    9 Spanish_Extremadura 13.01
    10 Bulgarian 13.39
    11 West_German 13.47
    12 Spanish_Murcia 13.5
    13 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.68
    14 Spanish_Valencia 14.16
    15 South_Dutch 14.68
    16 Greek_Thessaly 14.88
    17 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
    18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 15.49
    19 Austrian 15.59
    20 Italian_Abruzzo 15.95

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 56.4% West_Sicilian + 43.6% Danish @ 1.78
    2 50.5% Southwest_English + 49.5% Ashkenazi @ 1.89
    3 66.7% West_German + 33.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.05
    4 55.8% Danish + 44.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.12
    5 50.1% Southeast_English + 49.9% East_Sicilian @ 2.13

    6 54.5% West_Sicilian + 45.5% North_German @ 2.13
    7 66.9% West_German + 33.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.18
    8 64.7% South_Dutch + 35.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.19
    9 64.9% South_Dutch + 35.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.2
    10 56.7% West_Sicilian + 43.3% North_Dutch @ 2.25
    11 59.1% West_Sicilian + 40.9% Norwegian @ 2.29
    12 51.5% Ashkenazi + 48.5% West_Scottish @ 2.29
    13 67.7% West_German + 32.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.31
    14 60.4% South_Dutch + 39.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.31
    15 51.2% Ashkenazi + 48.8% Irish @ 2.34
    16 50.2% Danish + 49.8% South_Italian @ 2.38
    17 55.5% North_Dutch + 44.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.38
    18 52.4% Southeast_English + 47.6% Ashkenazi @ 2.43
    19 68% South_Dutch + 32% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.45
    20 65.7% South_Dutch + 34.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.46

     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 33.82
    2 East_Med 18.32
    3 West_Med 16.89
    4 Baltic 16.08
    5 West_Asian 8.39
    6 Red_Sea 3.46
    7 South_Asian 2.53


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_Italian @ 10.422905
    2 French @ 12.814438
    3 Tuscan @ 13.200874
    4 Romanian @ 13.233200
    5 Portuguese @ 13.315769
    6 Serbian @ 13.688792
    7 Spanish_Galicia @ 14.521055
    8 Spanish_Extremadura @ 14.614202
    9 Spanish_Cataluna @ 14.672001
    10 Spanish_Murcia @ 15.235260
    11 Bulgarian @ 15.319020
    12 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 15.489378
    13 West_German @ 15.495749
    14 Spanish_Valencia @ 15.959215
    15 Spanish_Andalucia @ 16.865477
    16 South_Dutch @ 16.955843
    17 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.152548
    18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 17.491745
    19 Austrian @ 17.800978
    20 Italian_Abruzzo @ 18.363577

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Southwest_English @ 2.022902


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Danish +25% Italian_Jewish +25% West_Sicilian @ 1.870847


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Valencia @ 1.502419
    2 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.556023
    3 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.633015
    4 Austrian + Danish + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.640233
    5 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Valencia @ 1.645843
    6 Greek_Thessaly + Sephardic_Jewish + Southeast_English + Southeast_English @ 1.664519
    7 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Murcia @ 1.670982
    8 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.713342
    9 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + West_Sicilian @ 1.726532
    10 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.733498
    11 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.735257
    12 Ashkenazi + Danish + South_Italian + Southwest_English @ 1.749877
    13 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia + West_Scottish @ 1.760900
    14 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English + Spanish_Valencia @ 1.778545
    15 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.778580
    16 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.788457
    17 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.803884
    18 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Andalucia + West_Scottish @ 1.808281
    19 East_German + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia + West_Scottish @ 1.814334
    20 Austrian + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_English + Spanish_Galicia @ 1.819512
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 11-08-2018 at 08:02 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #626
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    R1b-DF27>ZZ12>ZZ39
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    K1a4a1

    Italy 1861-1946 France-Ile-de-France Lorraine
    In my opinion this individual was the offspring of a Volkswanderung warrior and of a roman woman.
    According the study he belongs to the kindred of SZ2, who was buried in an individual tomb

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  13. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    You're similar to Camulogène Rix, were the Tuscans present on this PCA you'd be somewhere between them and some of the southernmost French samples. Is you entire family from the Veneto region? Regarding the Collegno samples, these samples are very heterogeneous, as you can see the Collegno cluster in grey spans almost the entire width of the plot. A handful, who are not shown here, even fall outside modern European variation and cluster in the Eastern Mediterranean alongside Calabrians, Sicilians, Jews and Aegean Greeks. Those closest to the Northern and Central European clusters (there's actually a slight gap between these samples and the other Collegno samples) are bound to be Lombards. Those close to you are bound to be more representative of the local pre-völkerwanderung population of Northern Italy IMHO.
    Thank you again!! Really appreciate your explanations! Yes you’re right my mom hails from northern Italy as well but she isn’t Veneta, she is from Emilia Romagna. My dad on the other hand, is Veneto ( I had 15% Swiss German and 35% from Ladinia with Lukasz K36 results, but not Veneto lol, think I got it from him).
    Last edited by mec_venitien; 11-08-2018 at 11:11 PM.

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  15. #628
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    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Australia Eureka
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    You're similar to Camulogène Rix, were the Tuscans present on this PCA you'd be somewhere between them and some of the southernmost French samples. Is you entire family from the Veneto region? Regarding the Collegno samples, these samples are very heterogeneous, as you can see the Collegno cluster in grey spans almost the entire width of the plot. A handful, who are not shown here, even fall outside modern European variation and cluster in the Eastern Mediterranean alongside Calabrians, Sicilians, Jews and Aegean Greeks. Those closest to the Northern and Central European clusters (there's actually a slight gap between these samples and the other Collegno samples) are bound to be Lombards. Those close to you are bound to be more representative of the local pre-völkerwanderung population of Northern Italy IMHO.
    how can I get mine done here ( what do you need ...I am not good with computer ) ................... I also want to see how close I am to the Collegno CL23 who is part of my ydna line.

    my line is veneto from circa 1600 and south tyrol ( trentino ) before this

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  17. #629
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    Italy 1861-1946 France-Ile-de-France Lorraine
    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    how can I get mine done here ( what do you need ...I am not good with computer ) ................... I also want to see how close I am to the Collegno CL23 who is part of my ydna line.

    my line is veneto from circa 1600 and south tyrol ( trentino ) before this
    For 12USD you get an awesome PCA
    http://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/g...ore-to-be.html
    and with your coordinates Agamemnon will give you in this thread his colorful map (+ precious comments) for free.

    Below Collegno CL23 K15, a strange animal...

    This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
    Questions about results should be sent to him at: Alexandr.Burnashev@gmail.com
    Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
    Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic 29.18
    2 West_Med 17.59
    3 North_Sea 13.46
    4 East_Med 12.20
    5 West_Asian 11.73
    6 Baltic 5.40
    7 Eastern_Euro 4.06
    8 Red_Sea 3.65


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_Italian @ 10.036211
    2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 10.277519
    3 Spanish_Valencia @ 11.594426
    4 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.697146
    5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 11.705449
    6 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.842367
    7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 12.544698
    8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.864682
    9 Tuscan @ 13.002621

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% French_Basque +50% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.841975


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% French_Basque +25% Kumyk +25% West_Sicilian @ 2.659965


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 French_Basque + French_Basque + Kumyk + West_Sicilian @ 2.659965
    2 French_Basque + Kurdish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.702729
    3 French_Basque + Kurdish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.853561
    4 French_Basque + Kurdish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.917787
    5 French_Basque + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.922346
    6 French_Basque + Kurdish + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.925586
    7 French_Basque + Kurdish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.947697
    8 Armenian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Serbian @ 2.968669
    9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Romanian + Turkish @ 2.969072
    Last edited by Camulogène Rix; 11-10-2018 at 07:19 PM. Reason: K15

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  19. #630
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