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Thread: New Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA

  1. #1671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    I agree with you about the Danes/Danelaw in England, thought also Normans played a role to the history of English/British people not only in linguistic terms but also in culture,traditions,royal houses,typonyms,surnames etc.Some French joking to Englishmen btw that Normans created modern UK

    Yes i think also that British Beakers are largery descended from Dutch Beakers or those from Rhine.Very high steppe levels and also WHG compared to other B.B sites and samples we got especially from south germany,iberia,italy and even france.Btw i have a question here.When exactly Gaels started to migrate to British Isles?Probably during EIA or IA?And another hard to question for you.What it was the pre-Celtic dialects of British Isles before Britons,Gaels arrived?I mean it was surely Indoeuropean but closer to Germanics or Celts?Or something in between?That is a hard question and something that we will never know just assume..
    Many Normans tend to vehemently disagree whenever someone calls them French, not that the people who push France's national saga are ever going to pay attention The Normans arrived comparatively late, it's quite doubtful they had an impact beyond the upper classes, also keep in mind that William the Conqueror's army had Breton and Flemish contingents which later settled along with the Normans, something to keep in mind. Another thing to keep in mind is that you had English and Welsh settlers in Normandy as well (and Anglo-Saxon settlers before that), so there are many factors which may bring them closer to the English.

    The Gaels started to migrate towards Britain in Antiquity, this intensified in Late Antiquity (roughly at the same time as the Anglo-Saxons swept in). The kingdom of Dál Riata was behind the spread of Gaelic in Scotland, for that matter the Scotti are identified with this kingdom (Scotland owes its name to a Gaelic tribe).

    Pre-Celtic speech in the British Isles possibly resembled Lusitanian, Ligurian, Sorothaptic and other similar Indo-European languages which defy conventional classification (hence their absence on most IE language trees). These languages resemble Italo-Celtic languages very closely without having taken part in any of the innovations which characterise either family. IMO these were the descendants of the language brought by the Bell Beakers, the sheer resemblance of these languages to Celtic is possibly what enabled it to spread in a way which resembled dialect-leveling (much like how the resemblance of Celtic to Latin paved the way towards the latter's adoption). So definitely closer to Celtic than to Germanic.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-27-2020 at 03:34 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Many Normans tend to vehemently disagree whenever someone calls them French, not that the people who push France's national saga are ever going to pay attention The Normans arrived comparatively late, it's quite doubtful they had an impact beyond the upper classes, also keep in mind that William the Conqueror's army had Breton and Flemish contingents which later settled along with the Normans, something to keep in mind. Another thing to keep in mind is that you had English and Welsh settlers in Normandy as well (and Anglo-Saxon settlers before that), so there many factors which may bring them closer to the English.

    The Gaels possibly started to migrate towards Britain in Antiquity, this intensified in Late Antiquity (roughly at the same time as the Anglo-Saxons swept in). The kingdom of Dál Riata was behind the spread of Gaelic in Scotland, for that matter the Scotti are identified with this kingdom (Scotland owes its name to a Gaelic tribe).

    Pre-Celtic speech in the British Isles possibly resembled Lusitanian, Ligurian, Sorothaptic and other similar Indo-European languages which defy conventional classification (hence their absence on most IE language trees). These languages resemble Italo-Celtic languages very closely without having taken part in any of the innovations which characterise either family. IMO these were the descendants of the language brought by the Bell Beakers, the sheer resemblance of these languages to Celtic is possibly what enabled it to spread in a way which resembled dialect-leveling (much like the resemblance of Celtic to Latin paved the way towards the latter's adoption). So definitely closer to Celtic than to Germanic.


    Ofc you know better than me the history of your country no doubt about it but yes you are probably right that 'Normans' should not be categorized as French/Franks but as a special/unique subgroup with their own peculiarity.But am i wrong that many words in modern English have Norman roots?


    Gaels started to migrate to Isles during Late Antiquity? Wow didn't knew that.I thought it was way earlier.Do you have a clue from where exactly they might arrived?I mean obviously from mainland Europe but more specifically France,Belgium,South Netherlands..i think Gaels origins are kinda mysterious and complicated.I have not found enough about them.


    I agree with your last statement it seems these dialects were much closer to Celtic-Italic rather to Germanic witch is more influenced from the native HG folks of Scandinavia.Btw what you think of the Pictish dialect?Would you categorize this ancient languange as similar to Celtic or to Pre-Celtic?I have not found enough either.Some people and even wiki categorize it as Brittonic Celtic but i don't trust 100% wiki and inaccurate sources but mostly academics!!!!

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  5. #1673
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    Michael is firmly in the North Sea continuum, ostensibly on the Scandinavian-leaning side, consequently he isn't too far from the Anglo-Saxons and falls within the Medieval Bavarian cluster. Manfred is pulled towards Central Europe, and falls closer to Czechs and East Germans in comparison. Nadine falls squarely within the French_Auvergne cluster here, typically French profile (transitional Western European), she does seem to be slightly pulled in a Central-Northern European direction compared to the other Central French samples, if I had to guess I'd say this is from Eastern France, possibly not too far from Burgundy or Franche-Comté (where I grew up).


    @Agamemnon: Exactly!!!! Many thanks!!!
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss.
    EUROGENES K13: N German, N Dutch, DNK, SWE, NOR. Ancestry: Germanic 75%, Sweden 13%, Norway 11%, Baltic 1%. LM: NOR, DNK, NLD, N-DEU, SWE.
    23andMe: NW Europe 82.5% (French/German 50.2%, Scandinavian 9.1%, British/Irish 3.2%), East Europe 11.5%, South Europe 1.5%. DNAL: NW Euro 81%, NE Euro 11%, Med 6.5%
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333, Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H

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  7. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Pre-Celtic speech in the British Isles possibly resembled Lusitanian, Ligurian, Sorothaptic and other similar Indo-European languages which defy conventional classification (hence their absence on most IE language trees). These languages resemble Italo-Celtic languages very closely without having taken part in any of the innovations which characterise either family. IMO these were the descendants of the language brought by the Bell Beakers, the sheer resemblance of these languages to Celtic is possibly what enabled it to spread in a way which resembled dialect-leveling (much like how the resemblance of Celtic to Latin paved the way towards the latter's adoption). So definitely closer to Celtic than to Germanic.
    Adding to that it appears modern (west) Iberians benefit from an additional 'Atlantic-like' reference in addition to celtic-speaking Iberian IA samples and a small bit of Germanic which, considering the links the region had to the British Isles and Western France during the Bronze Age, might open up the possibility that the Lusitanian language, or its ancestor, was brought over from one of these places. Or maybe it was there since the BB period, but we can't really know for sure so it's good to keep our options on the table
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    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

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    Levant_Roman,0.8

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  11. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Ofc you know better than me the history of your country no doubt about it but yes you are probably right that 'Normans' should not be categorized as French/Franks but as a special/unique subgroup with their own peculiarity.But am i wrong that many words in modern English have Norman roots?


    Gaels started to migrate to Isles during Late Antiquity? Wow didn't knew that.I thought it was way earlier.Do you have a clue from where exactly they might arrived?I mean obviously from mainland Europe but more specifically France,Belgium,South Netherlands..i think Gaels origins are kinda mysterious and complicated.I have not found enough about them.


    I agree with your last statement it seems these dialects were much closer to Celtic-Italic rather to Germanic witch is more influenced from the native HG folks of Scandinavia.Btw what you think of the Pictish dialect?Would you categorize this ancient languange as similar to Celtic or to Pre-Celtic?I have not found enough either.Some people and even wiki categorize it as Brittonic Celtic but i don't trust 100% wiki and inaccurate sources but mostly academics!!!!
    Agamemnon can correct me if I'm wrong but when he says Gaels started migrating towards Britain in Antiquity and then around the time of the Anglo-Saxons he means from Ireland not from the Continent. At least that is how I read it. I think Gaels are just an extension of the Bell Beakers of Ireland which is why he mentions Scotti which is what the Romans used to call the Irish.

    I also think migrations from Britain and Ireland have been a two-way street for a long time. Well I think that is pretty obvious anyway.

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  13. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Ofc you know better than me the history of your country no doubt about it but yes you are probably right that 'Normans' should not be categorized as French/Franks but as a special/unique subgroup with their own peculiarity.But am i wrong that many words in modern English have Norman roots?


    Gaels started to migrate to Isles during Late Antiquity? Wow didn't knew that.I thought it was way earlier.Do you have a clue from where exactly they might arrived?I mean obviously from mainland Europe but more specifically France,Belgium,South Netherlands..i think Gaels origins are kinda mysterious and complicated.I have not found enough about them.


    I agree with your last statement it seems these dialects were much closer to Celtic-Italic rather to Germanic witch is more influenced from the native HG folks of Scandinavia.Btw what you think of the Pictish dialect?Would you categorize this ancient languange as similar to Celtic or to Pre-Celtic?I have not found enough either.Some people and even wiki categorize it as Brittonic Celtic but i don't trust 100% wiki and inaccurate sources but mostly academics!!!!
    You're right, there are many words of French origin in the English language as well as several prefixes and suffixes of French origin, some have gone as far as to ascribe morphological and syntactic features to French influence but this really is far-fetched. This is due to the influence Old Norman had on Middle English, remember that Anglo-Norman remained the language of the court and its institutions until the 15th century, which is why many of the French loans are semantically tied to the royal, legal, military, religious and scholarly fields. That's what happens when a small elite adopts or imposes a language, this process isn't wildly different from the adoption of Arabic and Persian loans in Ottoman Turkish (as in English, the use of loanwords was highly dependent on social class and upbringing).

    Goidelic-speaking tribes were probably descended from the earliest wave of Celtic-speaking groups to have reached the Isles, hence why they retained Proto-Celtic *kʷ. The theory put forth by Thomas Francis O'Rahilly according to which P-Celtic was originally spoken in Ireland can be easily dismissed (Primitive Irish epigraphy alone refutes it), the appearance of tribes with P-Celtic names (such as the Manapioi) in Ptolemy's Geography probably has more to do with the use of British or Gallic sources. */kʷ/ > */p/ spread aerially, this isogloss cannot be used to obtain an internal classification, what this means is that (1) all of the Celtic languages which have survived to this day and age belong to a single branch (Insular Celtic) and that (2) Goidelic retained Proto-Celtic *kʷ because it remained at the periphery (for much the same reason Celtiberian also was Q-Celtic) while in Brythonic this became *p thanks to Britain's greater exposure to the continent (Gaulish also was P-Celtic for the most part, however some Gallic dialects were Q-Celtic as well, as I said the spread of this phonological feature was aerial). The exact timing of their arrival in Ireland is trickier, the Early Iron Age is probably the most likely period (following the rapid spread of Celtic during the Late Bronze Age).

    The Germanic parent language probably had its roots in the Nordic Bronze Age, and in one of the dialects spoken in the Corded Ware horizon before that. On most trees, you'll see Germanic is closer to Balto-Slavic than to Italo-Celtic, which largely accounts for the morphophonological similarity between those branches. Pictish definitely was a Brythonic dialect, it wasn't a separate language, it is probably the language tied to the P-Celtic borrowings and Welsh-like syntactic features in Scottish Gaelic.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-27-2020 at 11:48 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #1678
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    It's the French department of Nord, I believe, which is a bit of a confusing label.
    Sktibo, you are apparently right according to Tomenable, but that group is clearly full of outliers.

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  17. #1679
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    I think the Nord (French department) has many people without being clearly of French roots-origins.There are people with Belgian-Dutch roots or even British.

    De Gauelle for example was prolly not French or at least it is not 100% confirmed.I think thats a problem in the whole France and it has to do with people who also come from Iberia and Italy during the periods and changed their names and surnames to French.How many ethnic French nowdays have grandparents and grandmothers from Italy,Spain,Belgium,Netherlands etc?

    Even Macron himself is partly British.My point is that these outliers in some French samples might be people with mixed background.

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  19. #1680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Could you plot my Dad please?

    OwenDad,0.0124,0.0128,0.0134,0.0148,0.0119,0.0065, 0.0049,0.0017,0.0046,-0.0036,-0.002,0.0007,-0.0049,-0.014,0.0234,0.0181,-0.0029,0.0033,-0.0105,0.0053,0.0052,0.008,0.004,0.0122,0.0093

    OwenDad_Scaled, 0. 141140654,0.129987766,0.05053417,0.047804229,0.036 622238,0.018127893,0.011515521,0.003922913,0.00940 8097,-0.0065605,-0.003247768,0.001049066,-0.007284374,-0.019267174,0.03175855,0.023998716,-0.003781137,0.004180724,-0.013198295,0.006628179,0.00648855,0.009892219,0.0 04929909,0.014700873,0.011136726
    Could you plot my father please?????

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