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Thread: DF85 (L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222>DF85) & DF97

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    DF85 (L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222>DF85) & DF97

    DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
    Exact match to M222 Modal

    35883 Swago
    Kit number unknown McKenzie

    GD from M222 Modal

    GD = 13
    Qquip (ysearch) Darcy
    N5613 Gallion
    97959 Galyean
    150906 Kavanagh
    194478 Dennison
    63119 Gillespie
    34230 Gillsepie
    189098 Helton
    9151 Logan
    2280 O’Gara
    128533 Dalton
    184324 Walker
    153075 McKenzie
    47058 Martin
    191845 McCreary
    116222 Murray
    90152 Barron
    73487 Cruden
    114467 Connor
    N50250 Shaughnessy
    148768 Cowan
    57840 Fleming
    91925 Brennan
    88644 MacAdam
    87280 Bain
    200164 Mackin
    54126 McCreary
    172760 Whalley

    GD = 14
    206806 Quinton
    140782 Thomas
    78699 Dunn
    15820 Dunn
    155589 Gillespie
    39670 Smith
    148306 Riley
    170452 White
    166196 White
    173098 Wilson
    81057 Bray
    58898 Brannon
    16182 Dunne
    22172 McMurty
    147415 Moore
    19069 McMurty
    222842 Campbell
    118972 McCarthy
    165067 Cunningham
    53836 Ferrell

    GD = 15
    865R7 O’Dowd
    4391 Garrah
    114367 McHugh
    98514 Doudle
    N-7 Nolan
    98422 Barron
    22081 Dunn
    71439 Dunn
    N24075 Dees
    N-5 O’Nolan
    163088 Williams
    227877 Byrne
    131828 Noone
    108214 Agnew

    GD = 16
    N99804 Dolan
    23279 Kyle
    &6X6AQ McDonald
    212113 Dunne

    GD = 17
    197231 McConnaughey
    73592 Lyons
    121042 McCoy
    68387 Dolton

    GD = 18
    16646 Conroy
    37514 Nichols

    GD = 19
    56129 Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
    Iain Kennedy, is maintaining a PDF tree showing the known subclades of M222 (Chromo 2) with results added in:

    http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

    Here's a PNG I generated of the most recent version of tree (Halloween 2013)


    Obviously we are awaiting on Chromo2 results to come in to flesh it out, as DF85/DF97 are available for ordering there's been a fair amount of orders put in. There's a total of 30 DF85- results in the M222 project.

    Dave Reynolds had posted this version of the tree over in the other thread. Once the Chromo2 results start rolling in no doubt we'll be able to flesh out the tree quite abit. I believe there is also one of the DF49+/DF23+/Z2961+/M222- testing Chromo2 (Traynor?). Given that Z2961 is between M222 and DF23 that may be an interesting result.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    DF85 looks like a very good sized chunk of M222. I've got GD's of 12 between DF85 people (at 67) and M222 just doesn't a lot larger GDs than that. You can see the current DF85 people and my speculative initial STR patterns/varieties in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
    I should have been clearer. My statement was vague. I should have said the bulk of M222 people have GD ranges with each other of not much more than 12 or less (at 67).

    The way I calculate it, the highest GD at 67 to the M222 modal is 18. That would be in comparison to something like 30 for L21 so it looks like M222 is quite a bit younger than L21. I've got that 96% of the M222 people are are GD=12 or less to the M222 modal so they are fairly tightly related. Since we only have a handful fo DF85 people and we already have one that is GD=12 from another, it appears that DF85 could be nearly as old as M222. That's not for sure, but DF85 is not extremely young, that's for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I should have been clearer. My statement was vague. I should have said the bulk of M222 people have GD ranges with each other of not much more than 12 or less (at 67).

    The way I calculate it, the highest GD at 67 to the M222 modal is 18. That would be in comparison to something like 30 for L21 so it looks like M222 is quite a bit younger than L21. I've got that 96% of the M222 people are are GD=12 or less to the M222 modal so they are fairly tightly related. Since we only have a handful fo DF85 people and we already have one that is GD=12 from another, it appears that DF85 could be nearly as old as M222. That's not for sure, but DF85 is not extremely young, that's for sure.
    The Genetic Distance between 197231 McConnaughey DF85+ and 16646 Conroy DF85- is 23

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    I'm a distance of 12 markers away from the R-M222 Modal Haplotype (M5UKQ) at 76 markers on ySearch. I'm 11 away from the M222 Modal (6N59Y) at 67.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    The Genetic Distance between 197231 McConnaughey DF85+ and 16646 Conroy DF85- is 23
    I would expect some wide GDs between people of DF85+ and D85- people. However, that doesn't make M222 anywhere near as old as L21. There will be some abberations on the edges of that will diverge away and some that converge back in. I'm not sure what you are trying to point out.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 11-04-2013 at 01:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I would expect some wide GDs between people of DF85+ and D85- people. However, that doesn't make M222 anywhere near as old as L21. There will be some abberations on the edges of that will diverge away and some that converge back in. I'm not sure what you are trying to point out.
    I used the most extreme example to show how deceptive Genetic distances can be because DF85 is downstream of M222 and yet there is no example to be found between M222 people with a GD this large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    I used the most extreme example to show how deceptive Genetic distances can be because DF85 is downstream of M222 and yet there is no example to be found between M222 people with a GD this large.
    Agreed, and there is a chance that Lally has some kind of multi-step/large single event that causes his GD to be off the others in DF85, but given that we have multiple STR signature already for DF85 to go along with Lally's haplotype, I think there is a good chance that DF85 is old enough to deserve wide spread testing within M222. That's all I was trying to point out. We have only a handful of DF85+ haplotypes to look at but it looks promising. Additional testing is the only way to find out.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 11-05-2013 at 12:35 AM.

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    Personally I think S661 and S660 are going to be very interesting. Having a nested structure of SNP's will allow us at least split up groups for example. At the moment the DF85- are all just lumped together. It will be interesting to see which are:
    M222+ -> S661- (thence their DF85- result)
    M222+ -> S661* (negative for S660 thence DF85- result)
    M222+ -> S660* (negative for both S588 and DF85)
    M222+ -> S588+ (parallel clade to DF85 thence DF85- result)

    At the moment all we can say is that we have circa 12 DF85+ (4 of whom confirmed DF97+) and circa 32 DF85-.

    Lally is confirmed DF85+/DF97-.

    In the Ireland project we have two DF97+ they have a GD of 17 from one another at 67 markers. Lally has a GD of 12 (McNeely) and 17 (McConnaughey) from each of the these two DF97+. I'd say DF97 is also like it's parent DF85 quite old.

    If we compare Lally (DF85+/DF97-) to the DF85- members of the project we see a GD range of between 7 (Coyne) and 16 (Dunn) at 67 markers.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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