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Thread: DF85 (L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222>DF85) & DF97

  1. #21
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    Good news to hear a Boyle has done BigY. We don't currently have a O'Donnell BigY, however via the M222+ bundle we have an O'Donnell who is Z29319+ which is like you under ZZ36 (Z29319 is branch of FGC19851 which is parallel to BY3343).

    In the traditional genealogy the O'Donnell's and the Boyle's share a common ancestor that is closer together than their shared ancestor with the O'Doherty's. It's interesting that the one DF85+ Gallagher to do BigY is DF85+, S668+ and DF97-

    Which if it's reflective of Donegal Gallaghers as a totality might lend credence to your idea about DF97 been among the Cenél Lughdach (which consists of O'Donnell's, Boyles and Doherty's) within wider context of Cenél Conaill.
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  2. #22
    Thank you Dubhthach. Another Boyle match of mine (GD4 at y111), who has not done Big Y, and I have done extensive research into the early genealogies of Cenel Conaill. The most illuminating source for this material I've discovered so far is to be found in a book by Brian Lacey entitled Lug's Forgotten Donegal Kingdom. While I believe Mr. Lacey's underlying premise (that Sil Lugdach is not actually related to Cenel Conaill) is being actively disproven by the Big Tree, he has some very well researched genealogy timelines and quite a lot of information about Cenel Conaill.

    The Book of Fenagh and Rawlinson B502, quoted by Lacey, have constructions of the early Cenel Conaill genealogies which match up nicely with the Big Tree. For instance, according to these sources, O'Dochartaigh, O'Baoighill, and O'Donnell share the first Cenn Faelad, son of Garb (Garbh, Gairb), as a common ancestor. However, O'Gallagher (Gallcubhair), is split off farther up the tree under Setna (Setnai). If our hypothesis is true, there should be a line of Gallaghers upstream of DF97, but there should be Boyles, O'Donnells and O'Dogherties at DF97. Lo and behold, on the Big Tree, there is a Gallagher at S668, above DF97, and apparently now Boyle and O'Dogherty below DF97. You indicate an O'Donnell at DF97 and ZZ36+ also. That holds water with the Book of Fenagh genealogy. It is also consistent with the O'Clery Genealogies.

    Further, per these references, the O'Dochartaigh split off as descended from Fiamhain, son of the first Cenn Faelad, but both O'Boyle and O'Donnell descend from the second Cenn Faelad, son of Muircertach. The Book of Fenagh indicates Muircertach had five sons, Dalach (progenitor of O'Donnell), Bradagan (progenitor of O'Boyle) and three others from a different mother, Cernachan, Mael Gaoithe and Mael Foithbhil. If this were true, according to our hypothesis, there should be a common ancestor downstream of DF97 shared by the O'Boyles and the O'Donnells, but not by the O'Dochartaigh. Could that ancestor be ZZ36? This would be in the line of Airnelach, Mael Duin and the second Cenn Faelad. If there is an O'Donnell with a marker for ZZ36, this supports the theory. To reinforce this, lo and behold again, there are two Carnahans listed under ZZ36 on the Big Tree. Descendants of Cernachan, step-brother of Dalach and Bradagan?

    More importantly, based on the relative statistical ages of S668, DF97 and ZZ36, if you look at the dates from the Annals for the deaths of these Cenel Conaill fathers as calculated by Brian Lacey, they match up very nicely if you take S668 as a marker for Setna, DF97 as a marker for the Lugaid->Ronan->Garbh->Cenn Faelad line, and ZZ36 as a marker for the Airnelach->Mael Duin->second Cenn Faelad line.

    There it is. Hope I'm not upsetting too many people.
    Last edited by Baoighill; 06-13-2018 at 05:31 AM.

  3. #23
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    There are two Z29319+ O'Donnell's in the Ireland project (where I'm an admin). Both via SNP testing, one of them is based here in Ireland and is tested also to 111 STR's at which point he has a genetic distance of 5 from a Boyle who has BY35772+ as a terminal SNP.

    I imagine that this kit would probably be interested in BiGY testing if it was sponsored somewhat.
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  4. #24
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    I have the Lacey book as well as his one on the broader Cenél Conaill in my personal library.


    It's useful book but didn't agree with his theories on the origin of the Northern Uí Néill. Likewise a number of historians also contested it for example, Dr. Colmán Etchingham from University of Maynooth

    His review in IHS (Irish Historical Studies) can be read on Sci-Hub:
    http://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/20720242

    Lacey's problem is that he hardly succeeds in sustaining these postulates. Take the key
    case of Conall Gulban: that he was brother to another Conall, Conall Cremthainne, ancestor
    of the southern or midlands Uf Neill, looks, indeed, like a genealogist's conceit (p. 24).
    That he was really ancestor both to the Cenel Conaill of Donegal and to Diarmait mac
    Cerbaill - a shadowy but apparently historical sixth-century king, from whom the southern
    or midlands 'Ui Neill' claimed descent - if sustained, would be fatal to the received
    wisdom regarding the Uf Neill. But the case never proceeds beyond the hypothetical:
    Diarmait 'could have had Donegal connections' (p. 24), 'may have had a connection with
    the Cenel Conaill' (p. 153), this being an 'ingenious suggestion' (p. 165), subsequently,
    a 'persuasive argument' (p. 176), so he is 'of probable Cenel Conaill origin' (p. 190),
    and 'there are now good reasons for thinking that Diarmait was actually a northerner
    and probably connected with the Cenel Conaill' (p. 206). Lacey's conviction strengthens
    over 180 pages, based not on telling evidence, but, apparently, mere force of repetition.
    The basic hypothesis attracts further conjecture: 'if Diarmait did take part [in the battle
    of Cul Dreimne in 562], then it is more likely that he was actually leading the Donegal
    kingdoms against their enemy. That enemy, although nowhere mentioned as such, was
    almost certainly the Cenel Cairpre' (pp 184-5). There is no warrant for this, which is
    directly belied by accounts of the battle.
    Since his thesis is that, in effect, almost nobody of any consequence who claimed descent from Níall was so descended in reality, it remains to be explained by what quirk the label Uí Néill acquired the cachet it did.
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  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Dubhthach For This Useful Post:

     Robert McBride (06-13-2018)

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    I have the Lacey book as well as his one on the broader Cenél Conaill in my personal library.


    It's useful book but didn't agree with his theories on the origin of the Northern Uí Néill. Likewise a number of historians also contested it for example, Dr. Colmán Etchingham from University of Maynooth

    His review in IHS (Irish Historical Studies) can be read on Sci-Hub:
    http://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/20720242
    i

    Hi Dubhthach,

    What is your opinion of Brian Lacey’s suggestion on page 286 of his Donegal Kingdoms book that Cenel Eoghan had an alliance with the Picts parallel to that between Cenel Conaill and Dal Riata?

    If there was that could have been a way for S588 to get into the north east of Scotland.
    I m probably imagining it but there seems to be a North East bias amongst the Scottish S588 samples on the Big tree anyway.

    Sorry if its a bit off topic

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