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Thread: DF27* (the real deal) (DF27+ Z196- DF81- DF83- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-)

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    DF27* (the real deal) (DF27+ Z196- DF81- DF83- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-)

    I just updated the R1b-DF27 FTDNA project "ungrouped" people to get them assigned. I also moved a few people from DF27+ to DF27+ Z196-. I've been surprised, but Z196 may not be as dominant in DF27 as I once thought.

    I have one subgrouping set up that has invisible because no one can be put it in yet, I think. In the current subgrouping scheme, I'd call this DF27**, positive for DF27 and negative for everything downstream that they can test for.
    DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

    I suspect that is list of negatives is slightly how of date. What am I missing?

    There is one fellow very close to this status.
    f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27 DF27+ Z196- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

    He's done Geno 2.0 and that doesn't put the negative SNPs on the Y DNA SNP report screen for the project so may be he is DF81- DF83-. Has anyone looked at his raw results for Geno 2.0?

    If he is negative for both I'll update the supgroupings and add the negatives manually into the DF27 haplotypes spreadsheet.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 11-12-2013 at 03:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I just updated the R1b-DF27 FTDNA project "ungrouped" people to get them assigned. I also moved a few people from DF27+ to DF27+ Z196-. I've been surprised, but Z196 may not be as dominant in DF27 as I once thought.

    I have one subgrouping set up that has invisible because no one can be put it in yet, I think. In the current subgrouping scheme, I'd call this DF27**, positive for DF27 and negative for everything downstream that they can test for.
    DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

    I suspect that is list of negatives is slightly how of date. What am I missing?

    There is one fellow very close to this status.
    f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27 DF27+ Z196- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-

    He's done Geno 2.0 and that doesn't put the negative SNPs on the Y DNA SNP report screen for the project so may be he is DF81- DF83-. Has anyone looked at his raw results for Geno 2.0?
    He has the following on order:
    DF79
    DF81
    DF83
    DF84
    L1246
    L194

    Once those results come in that should answer your question Mike. I don't know if there is anyone looking at Geno 2.0 raw data for DF27+.

    Him an a number of others form what you could almost call the "Ormond" DF27+ cluster -- Ormond = Urumhain = "East Munster", basically Tippeary but also including Kilkenny in context of medieval norman Earldom of Ormond

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Ormond_(Ireland)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormonde_Castle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormond_Lower
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ormond_Upper

    Kennedy is a Tipperary name, the Kennedys are suppose to be Dál gCais (Type III -- R1b-L226+), in 59497 case all his close matches tend to have surnames from around general "Ormond" area. Namely Dwyer, Butler, Carroll, Kennedy, Foley, Ryan etc.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I just updated the R1b-DF27 FTDNA project "ungrouped" people to get them assigned. I also moved a few people from DF27+ to DF27+ Z196-. I've been surprised, but Z196 may not be as dominant in DF27 as I once thought.
    Thank you for all the work you do Mike and thank you for pointing this out. Using your spreadsheet and selecting DF27+ shows 849 hits. Selecting Z196+ shows 621 hits which is 73% of DF27. It's still a significant percentage. Choosing Spain it shows 108 DF27+ and 79 Z196+ which is also 73%. Choosing Isles shows 361 DF27+ and 254 Z196+ which is 70%. This makes it look as though the average DF27+ groups found anywhere in Europe have a similar makeup as the Spanish. Regardless of where the point of origin is they seem to have spread pretty evenly. Am I right here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    .. This makes it look as though the average DF27+ groups found anywhere in Europe have a similar makeup as the Spanish. Regardless of where the point of origin is they seem to have spread pretty evenly. Am I right here?
    It's a little early yet, still. I think Iberia and southern France will have the highest frequencies. Parts of France may surprise us yet. However, relative to L21 anyway, DF27 is fairly well scattered. I think it is more scattered than U152 also, but that's clearly speculative.

    Keep in mind that our DNA projects have an Isles bias, and an Irish/Scots bias amongst that.

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    In the R1b-DF27_Haplotypes spreadsheet I have Kennedy speculatively assigned to STR signature/variety d-2521. Typically (but not always) these people have 390=25 464d=18 low CDY 481=24 520=21. 481=24 seems to be the most consistent marker with 520=21 a close second.

    f59497 Kennedy R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 Ireland
    f207164 Cannady R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 UK
    fN88747 Dwyer R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland
    f138763 Ryan R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Glenough Lower
    f198624 Carroll R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Limerick, Stonepark
    f73256 Eddye R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 England, South West, Devonshire, Ashburton
    f79047 Foley R1b-P312 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
    f109971 Ryan R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland
    f121153 Wilkinson R1b-P312>DF27>L86.2+ d-2521-862 England, North East, Durham, Stockton-on-Tees
    f172132 Wilkinson R1b-P312>DF27>L86.2+ d-2521-862 England, North East, Durham, Stockton-on-Tees
    f155150 Butler R1b-P312>DF27* d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
    f50661 Condra R1b-P312>DF27 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
    f163727 Lee R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland, Leinster, Co. Louth, Dunkalk
    f115560 Smith R1b-P312 p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
    f48197 Dwyer R1b-P312 d-2521 Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Tipperary
    f165032 Martin R1b-P312 d-2521 zzzUnkOrigin
    f169776 Cahoo R1b-P312>DF27 d- uas Ireland

    It looks like L86.2 is a subclade of this group, but we need to discover an SNP or two for these guys.

    The d-2521 group above is probably another very early branch off of DF27 outside of Z196. We need to know about the DF81 and DF83 status, though. This may help us better understand the origins of DF27. There is a heavy frequency of DF27 along the Pyrenees and into Spain, but there are also early branches that don't seem to be found there.

    I see this group has a more Irish bent than most DF27 in the Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    He has the following on order:
    DF79
    DF81
    DF83
    DF84
    L1246
    L194
    Results today, Kennedy is negative for all the above SNP's.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Results today, Kennedy is negative for all the above SNP's.
    Thanks. I think all of those d-2521 guys could end up with the same status. It looks like an Irish/Munster focus with Devonshire and perhaps oddly, Durham, thrown in. I do count L86.2 as a subset of this.

    I guess Kennedy should get the explorer badge for DF27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm not sure if this directly ties to Early Maritime Beakers or not, but for the folks who think DF27 was along the Atlantic very early here is one point on the scoreboard for them.

    DF27* confirmation takes some pretty decent testing and our first true DF27* (or DF27** if you prefer) guy is an Irishman - Kennedy. Paragroups are fleeting kinds of things but there is an Isles variety that looks DF27* and at the very least they were an early branch from the DF27 known subclades.

    DF27* thread for more info.
    Other than DF81 which other SNPs does kit 193923 need to test for in order to qualify as being DF27* ?

    DF27+, P312+, DF17-, DF19-, DF79-, DF83-, L1231-, L176.2-, L20-, L21-, L226-, L238-, L617-, L86.2-, L881-, M153-, M228.2-, M65-, U106-, U152-, Z196-, Z225-

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

    Are the SNPs that need to be tested part of the Geno 2.0 test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Thanks. I think all of those d-2521 guys could end up with the same status. It looks like an Irish/Munster focus with Devonshire and perhaps oddly, Durham, thrown in. I do count L86.2 as a subset of this.

    I guess Kennedy should get the explorer badge for DF27.
    The closest STR matches to the Wilkinsons from Durham are three McCarvell/McCarvills, four steps at 67 markers. Two of them are said to be from Ireland.

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    Mike, I just found out that F193923 and F243639 match 107 out of 111 markers and they both have the same surname. They are also from states that border each other. They had been in contact with each other and had agreed for one person to test some SNPs and the other would test the other SNPs. F243639 tested negative for DF81. Therefore, they should both fit DF27* (the real deal) (DF27+ Z196- DF81- DF83- Z225- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231-) unless I am missing something. Please let me know one way or another. Both of them are in your DF27 R1b-DF27 and Subclades Project.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 11-13-2013 at 03:51 PM.

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