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Thread: North Italian VS Spanish Admix

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    North Italian VS Spanish Admix

    This is not news. But every since I ordered my 23andme V3 test early this year and started playing on Gedmatch, I soon found out that my North Italian heritage nearly always shows up as Spanish. Since I am mixed and just part Italian I thought that could be the explanation. But when I got my fathers results from FTDNA - I found out that his 75% Italian show up as Spanish as well. I read in some threads that other Italians got "Spanish" results on Gedmatch and other sites.

    I understand South Europeans in general are close related but from some results I have seen it has been easy to pick out Italian / Spanish admix.

    Anybody who noticed the same thing?

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    This is my mother's results. She 50% Sicilian, however, Spanish shows up too and does for me as well as 25% italian. Not sure if this helps you


    MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 27.88
    2 European_Early_Farmers 26.78
    3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 23.75
    4 South_Central_Asian 6.78
    5 Near_East 4.95
    6 North_African 3.67
    7 Ancestral_Altaic 2.21


    Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
    23 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Italian_North_ @ 3.536780
    2 Greek_Northwest_ @ 9.738916
    3 Kosovar_ @ 10.060842
    4 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 11.149029
    5 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 11.295552
    6 German-Volga_ @ 12.162910
    7 Italian_Bergamo_ @ 12.431218
    8 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 12.539641
    9 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 12.607228
    10 Bulgarian_ @ 12.755249
    11 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 12.864416
    12 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 12.874256
    13 Macedonian_ @ 14.457701
    14 French_ @ 14.673141
    15 Montenegrian_ @ 14.793421
    16 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 15.009355
    17 Romanian_ @ 15.062660
    18 Central_Greek_ @ 15.135163
    19 Sicilian_West_ @ 15.188276
    20 South_German_ @ 15.212974

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish_ +50% Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 1.867124


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish_ +25% Sicilian_Trapani_ +25% Sicilian_West_ @ 1.713064


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Armenian_ + Russian-West_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ + Spanish_Valencia_IBS_ @ 1.198078
    2 Armenian_ + Russian-North-West_ + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS_ + Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ @ 1.223336
    3 Armenian_Yerevan_ + Belarusian_West_ + Spanish_Cantabria_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.269230
    4 Armenian_ + Belarusian-East_ + Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS_ + Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ @ 1.277499
    5 Armenian_ + Russian_South_ + Spanish_Cantabria_IBS_ + Spanish_Extremadura_IBS_ @ 1.281003
    6 Armenian_ + Belarusian_West_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ + Spanish_Valencia_IBS_ @ 1.281949
    7 Armenian_ + Russian-West_ + Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ + Spanish_Valencia_IBS_ @ 1.288110
    8 Armenian_ + Russian-West_ + Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.288683
    9 Armenian_ + Russian-North-West_ + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.294375
    10 Armenian_ + Balt_ + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS_ + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS_ @ 1.301910
    11 Armenian_ + Russian_South_ + Spanish_Cantabria_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.304536
    12 Armenian_Yerevan_ + Belarusian-East_ + Spanish_Cantabria_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.306316
    13 Armenian_ + Spanish_Aragon_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ + Ukrainian_ @ 1.313707
    14 Armenian_Yerevan_ + Russian-North-West_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ + Spanish_Valencia_IBS_ @ 1.316179
    15 Armenian_ + Belarusian-East_ + Spanish_Cantabria_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.316335
    16 Armenian_ + Russian_South_ + Spanish_Aragon_IBS_ + Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ @ 1.317083
    17 Armenian_ + Belarusian-East_ + Spanish_Aragon_IBS_ + Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ @ 1.319902
    18 Armenian_Yerevan_ + Russian-West_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ + Spanish_Valencia_IBS_ @ 1.321405
    19 Armenian_ + Belarusian-East_ + Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS_ + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS_ @ 1.323462
    20 Armenian_ + Russian-West_ + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS_ + Spanish_Galicia_IBS_ @ 1.325121



    Elapsed time 49.4015 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sizzles View Post
    This is my mother's results. She 50% Sicilian, however, Spanish shows up too and does for me as well as 25% italian. Not sure if this helps you

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Italian_North_ @ 3.536780.
    Thank you. Atleast her first population was North Italian.

    Does spanish show up in K13?
    Last edited by Nino90; 09-24-2018 at 05:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    This is not news. But every since I ordered my 23andme V3 test early this year and started playing on Gedmatch, I soon found out that my North Italian heritage nearly always shows up as Spanish. Since I am mixed and just part Italian I thought that could be the explanation. But when I got my fathers results from FTDNA - I found out that his 75% Italian show up as Spanish as well. I read in some threads that other Italians got "Spanish" results on Gedmatch and other sites.

    I understand South Europeans in general are close related but from some results I have seen it has been easy to pick out Italian / Spanish admix.

    Anybody who noticed the same thing?
    If your North-italian is from north-west italy then you should/could have spanish/catalan in your mix ......especially with genoese mix.
    if
    it is from north-east italy then you could get galician/portuguese in your mix ..........galician will also be noted as spanish even though they seem more portuguese

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Thank you. Atleast her first population was North Italian.

    Does spanish show up in K13?
    Yes it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    If your North-italian is from north-west italy then you should/could have spanish/catalan in your mix ......especially with genoese mix.
    if
    it is from north-east italy then you could get galician/portuguese in your mix ..........galician will also be noted as spanish even though they seem more portuguese
    Like I told you earlier in some other tread. My Italian heritage is from Mountain-parts of North Tuscany.

    I can post my fathers K13:
    1 French 8.32
    2 West_German 9.82
    3 South_Dutch 10.49
    4 Austrian 11.47
    5 Portuguese 11.58
    6 Serbian 11.74
    7 Spanish_Galicia 11.75
    8 Spanish_Cataluna 11.9
    9 North_Italian 12.68
    10 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.85
    11 Hungarian 13.05
    12 Romanian 13.12
    13 Spanish_Extremadura 13.2
    14 Spanish_Murcia 13.5
    15 East_German 13.61
    16 Spanish_Valencia 13.88
    17 Spanish_Cantabria 14.43
    18 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.66
    19 Southwest_French 14.67
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 14.93

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.6% Spanish_Cataluna + 30.4% Tatar @ 2.16
    2 75.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 24.2% Chuvash @ 2.62
    3 66.4% Spanish_Valencia + 33.6% Tatar @ 3.08
    4 68.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 31.8% Tatar @ 3.17
    5 70.7% Portuguese + 29.3% Tatar @ 3.37
    6 67.2% Spanish_Murcia + 32.8% Tatar @ 3.51
    7 78% Spanish_Cataluna + 22% Mari @ 3.56
    8 65.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 34.7% Tatar @ 3.61
    9 73% Spanish_Valencia + 27% Chuvash @ 3.64
    10 76.8% Portuguese + 23.2% Chuvash @ 3.78
    11 74.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 25.3% Chuvash @ 3.81
    12 73.7% Spanish_Murcia + 26.3% Chuvash @ 3.83
    13 61.7% Spanish_Aragon + 38.3% Tatar @ 3.85
    14 71.8% Spanish_Murcia + 28.2% Erzya @ 3.95
    15 67.9% Spanish_Extremadura + 32.1% Tatar @ 4.04
    16 72% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 28% Chuvash @ 4.04
    17 64.3% North_Italian + 35.7% North_Swedish @ 4.04
    18 70.7% Spanish_Galicia + 29.3% Tatar @ 4.1
    19 65.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 34.2% Tatar @ 4.15
    20 74.3% Spanish_Extremadura + 25.7% Chuvash @ 4.21



    Mine:
    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 97.9% South_Dutch + 2.1% Evens @ 2.91
    2 97.7% South_Dutch + 2.3% Dolgan @ 2.92
    3 97.8% South_Dutch + 2.2% Evenki @ 2.93
    4 63% Swedish + 37% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93
    5 97.8% South_Dutch + 2.2% Yakut @ 2.97
    6 60.3% Swedish + 39.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.99
    7 97.7% South_Dutch + 2.3% Koryak @ 3
    8 97.4% South_Dutch + 2.6% Selkup @ 3.02
    9 97.4% South_Dutch + 2.6% Ket @ 3.02
    10 60.8% Swedish + 39.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.02

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    In every plot map I have seen so far, North Italian and Spanish always overlap.

    Actually North Italians and Spaniards are much closer to each other than North Italians to South Italians.

    I guess if we added South French in the mix, they would also be part of the club.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 09-24-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    In every plot map I have seen so far, North Italian and Spanish always overlap.

    Actually North Italians and Spaniards are much closer to each other than North Italians to South Italians.

    I guess if we added South French in the mix, they would also be part of the club.
    Yes. On some PCA maps Iberian people and North Italians overlap. But does not Iberian have more North African Admixture than most Italians overall?
    Or is it because of similar amount of "Celtic/Germanic" Admixture into a somewhat similar Mediterranean population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Yes. On some PCA maps Iberian people and North Italians overlap. But does not Iberian have more North African Admixture than most Italians overall?
    Or is it because of similar amount of "Celtic/Germanic" Admixture into a somewhat similar Mediterranean population?
    Yes, but north Italians also have more East Med than Iberians do, and generally a bit less Steppe and more Neolithic ancestry (presumably from the East Med source).
    Here's a qpAdm model David did a while ago.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=515556785
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=661987578

    Southern French are also similar, but closer to other West Europeans that these two groups are. SW French show a clear Basque influence. Overall Iberians and North Italians are very similar, so the overlap we see in some PCAs and Italians getting Iberian isn't too unexpected
    G25 Hidden Content and Hidden Content distances
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Yes. On some PCA maps Iberian people and North Italians overlap. But does not Iberian have more North African Admixture than most Italians overall?
    Or is it because of similar amount of "Celtic/Germanic" Admixture into a somewhat similar Mediterranean population?
    I am not yet completely sure what Iberian category exactly tries to measure. So far when I see it as a category in admixtures calculators I have interpreted it as an attempt to match ancient and ancestral Iberian people contribution and in that case any Celtic/Germanic mix is (or should be) completely excluded. In that case Spaniards and Portuguese are never going to be 100% Iberian. You'll never find such a thing. They will always show a high score there together with other minor but significant contributions that try to map the "non-southmediterranean" side that all Spaniards and Portuguese have (Mostly Celtic, Germanic and Basque).

    If the term "Iberians" is used here as an attempt to identify some sort of paradigmatic hispanic-portuguese genetic signature indeed a higher North African admixture than Italians is expected but it is so small that I doubt it could make any difference.

    Despite being somehow quite homogeneous compared to the rest of Europe, if we try to refine its internal genetic admixture, the Iberian peninsula seems to have several "flavors" that show a clear West/East pattern instead of a expected North/South one. Funny enough the North African admixture is higher in the West but fades quickly as you move to the East (it actually disappears) mostly ignoring any possibility of North/South axis despite the fact that North Africa is obviously very close to the south of Iberia. It therefore seems to go together with the most "celtic" iberians while it fades among the most "mediterranean" ones.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 09-24-2018 at 10:40 AM.
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