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Thread: North Italian VS Spanish Admix

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    I am not yet completely sure what Iberian category exactly tries to measure. So far I have interpreted it as an attempt to match ancient and ancestral Iberian people contribution and in that case any Celtic/Germanic mix is completely excluded. In that case Spaniards and Portuguese are never going to be 100% Iberian. You'll never find such a thing. They will always show a high score there together with other minor but significant contributions that try to map the "non-southmediterranean" side that all Spaniards and Portuguese have (Mostly Celtic, Germanic and Basque).

    If "Iberians" is just an attempt to identify some sort of paradigmatic hispanic-portuguese genetic signature indeed a higher North African admixture than Italians is expected but it is so small that I doubt it could make any difference.
    The Celtic I speak about is not same thing as modern British people. I would asume the first celts were more similar to french/Alpine people than modern brits.
    And that they mixed with Spaniards and North italians.

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     JerryS. (09-25-2018)

  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    The Celtic I speak about is not same thing as modern British people. I would asume the first celts were more similar to french/Alpine people than modern brits.
    And that they mixed with Spaniards and North italians.
    Modern British people are either not Celtic or very little. They tend to match better a mix of Scandinavians and Germanic/Saxons.

    "Celt" anyway is indeed a wide misused term and I also made the same mistake here. Take it as a rough description for the different waves of bronze age and iron age indoeuropean invaders that were somehow related to each other.

    Spanish/Portuguese genetic core is a sort of mix between these indoeuropeans and the native Iberians they found when they arrived.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 09-24-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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     Nino90 (09-24-2018)

  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Modern British people are either not Celtic or very little. They tend to match better a mix of Scandinavians and Germanic/Saxons.
    That's not necessarily true, go check out this thread
    G25 Hidden Content and Hidden Content distances
    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

    DEIBABOR
    IGO
    DEIBOBOR
    VISSAIEIGO
    BOR

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     Cascio (12-03-2018)

  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    That's not necessarily true, go check out this thread
    mmmh. Can you point me to a specific post? There are a lot of pages.


    It seems to be the typical thread with a lot of people posting their results. I went to the link in the first post. (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...urope.html?m=1)

    As far as I understand is an attempt to discern Germanic vs Celtic. And I clearly see two clusters formed (one at the right and one at the left) but I cannot see what is supposed to be what.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 09-24-2018 at 11:08 AM.
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  8. #15
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    Davidski's quote, for example
    This PCA is specifically designed to differentiate the Celts and Celtic-related populations of the British Isles and Ireland and Germanics, especially those from the Germanic homeland and surrounds. These two groups are still rather unadmixed, and they're clearly differentiated in PC2, but also to some extent in PC1.

    Everyone else on the plot has more complex ancestry, and usually can't be described as either Celtic or Germanic or even a mixture of both, so they're mostly there to help give it structure. For instance, the Southern Europeans help in pulling apart the Insular Celts and uber Germanics, because they stretch the plot both along the east > west and north > south clines.

    But all of the populations in the analysis do have at least some Celtic and Germanic ancestry, and it might be possible to model this using nMonte. Also, the presence of the Southern and East Central Europeans means that any populations and individuals with ancestry from the south and east of Europe can be modeled more accurately with these data.

    The PCAs and their results in general show that modern British are very close to British Celts with a significant but still minor Germanic/Scandinavian(Anglo-Saxon) influence. They are not mostly Scandinavian+Germanic, in fact Anglo-Saxons were very Scandinavian-like themselves. The older Celtic substratum is very much present and still dominant. Whether continental Celts - especially those earlier ones in Iberia and Italy were the same, we can't tell until we have samples.
    G25 Hidden Content and Hidden Content distances
    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

    DEIBABOR
    IGO
    DEIBOBOR
    VISSAIEIGO
    BOR

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    This is not news. But every since I ordered my 23andme V3 test early this year and started playing on Gedmatch, I soon found out that my North Italian heritage nearly always shows up as Spanish. Since I am mixed and just part Italian I thought that could be the explanation. But when I got my fathers results from FTDNA - I found out that his 75% Italian show up as Spanish as well. I read in some threads that other Italians got "Spanish" results on Gedmatch and other sites.

    I understand South Europeans in general are close related but from some results I have seen it has been easy to pick out Italian / Spanish admix.

    Anybody who noticed the same thing?
    In my case, I'm actually part Portuguese, but mostly North Italian. Most calculators, however, seem to think otherwise...

    My maternal grandmother, on the other hand, had 4 grandparents from North Italy, and MyHeritage gives her 41% Iberian. Even on FTDNA she scores 15% Iberian.
    This is my K13. My first population is North Italian, but the mixed mode is a little crazy

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 34.08
    2 West_Med 24.89
    3 East_Med 19.69
    4 Baltic 9.35
    5 West_Asian 4.87
    6 Red_Sea 3.86
    7 Amerindian 1.4
    8 East_Asian 0.91
    9 Sub-Saharan 0.54
    10 Oceanian 0.41

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 North_Italian 4.21
    2 Spanish_Extremadura 6.97
    3 Portuguese 7.31
    4 Spanish_Murcia 7.61
    5 Spanish_Andalucia 8.14
    6 Tuscan 8.38
    7 Spanish_Valencia 8.41
    8 Spanish_Galicia 8.94
    9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.22
    10 Spanish_Cataluna 9.42
    11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.76
    12 Spanish_Cantabria 11.9
    13 Spanish_Aragon 12.2
    14 Southwest_French 13.9
    15 French 14.08
    16 West_Sicilian 14.93
    17 Italian_Abruzzo 15.74
    18 Greek_Thessaly 16.87
    19 Romanian 18.38
    20 Bulgarian 19.11

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 52.5% Spanish_Murcia + 47.5% Tuscan @ 1.82
    2 83.6% Spanish_Valencia + 16.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 1.98
    3 64.7% Spanish_Aragon + 35.3% Ashkenazi @ 2.05
    4 83.2% Spanish_Valencia + 16.8% Samaritan @ 2.06
    5 66.9% Spanish_Murcia + 33.1% West_Sicilian @ 2.07
    6 83% Spanish_Valencia + 17% Palestinian @ 2.07
    7 72.7% Spanish_Cataluna + 27.3% Italian_Jewish @ 2.08
    8 72.8% Spanish_Murcia + 27.2% Central_Greek @ 2.13
    9 73.8% Spanish_Murcia + 26.2% South_Italian @ 2.14
    10 75.1% Spanish_Murcia + 24.9% Ashkenazi @ 2.16
    11 72.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 27.1% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.18
    12 83.5% Spanish_Valencia + 16.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.21
    13 82.5% Spanish_Murcia + 17.5% Cyprian @ 2.21
    14 75.3% Spanish_Valencia + 24.7% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.22
    15 72.9% Spanish_Murcia + 27.1% East_Sicilian @ 2.22
    16 82.1% Spanish_Valencia + 17.9% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.24
    17 82.3% Spanish_Valencia + 17.7% Syrian @ 2.24
    18 77.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 22.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.26
    19 73.4% Spanish_Cataluna + 26.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.27
    20 64.6% Spanish_Valencia + 35.4% West_Sicilian @ 2.3

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  12. #17
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    Thank you for your post!

    Would you like to post your grandmothers K13 Oracle? And tell what part of Northern Italy she is from?

    Your oracle results reflects your background very good, I would say.

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     emc (09-24-2018)

  14. #18
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    Sure, I didn't post them both at once because it would be to long.
    She was born here in Brazil. Her grandparents were from Mantova, Reggio Emilia, Padova and Northern Tuscany.


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 27.62
    2 East_Med 24.14
    3 West_Med 23.64
    4 Baltic 11.61
    5 West_Asian 8.86
    6 Red_Sea 2.41
    7 Oceanian 0.61
    8 Northeast_African 0.57
    9 East_Asian 0.53

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 2.46
    2 North_Italian 5.92
    3 West_Sicilian 8.41
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.95
    5 Greek_Thessaly 9.56
    6 Central_Greek 12.24
    7 East_Sicilian 12.68
    8 Bulgarian 13.93
    9 South_Italian 13.95
    10 Portuguese 14.27
    11 Spanish_Extremadura 14.32
    12 Romanian 14.38
    13 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
    14 Spanish_Murcia 15.17
    15 Ashkenazi 15.27
    16 Spanish_Valencia 15.53
    17 Spanish_Galicia 15.73
    18 Spanish_Cataluna 16.17
    19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.4
    20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 17.02

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 72.9% North_Italian + 27.1% Ashkenazi @ 1.83
    2 95.4% Tuscan + 4.6% South_Polish @ 1.88
    3 95.6% Tuscan + 4.4% Ukrainian @ 1.89
    4 93.9% Tuscan + 6.1% Hungarian @ 1.9
    5 94.4% Tuscan + 5.6% Croatian @ 1.91
    6 94.5% Tuscan + 5.5% East_German @ 1.92
    7 96% Tuscan + 4% Polish @ 1.93
    8 91.8% Tuscan + 8.2% Serbian @ 1.93
    9 96.2% Tuscan + 3.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.93
    10 94.1% Tuscan + 5.9% Austrian @ 1.94
    11 96.7% Tuscan + 3.3% Lithuanian @ 1.94
    12 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.94
    13 96.6% Tuscan + 3.4% Estonian @ 1.94
    14 96.1% Tuscan + 3.9% Southwest_Russian @ 1.94
    15 96.7% Tuscan + 3.3% La_Brana-1 @ 1.94
    16 94.1% Tuscan + 5.9% Moldavian @ 1.95
    17 96.4% Tuscan + 3.6% Belorussian @ 1.95
    18 90.5% Tuscan + 9.5% Romanian @ 1.95
    19 96.4% Tuscan + 3.6% Estonian_Polish @ 1.95
    20 95.7% Tuscan + 4.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.96

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Davidski's quote, for example

    The PCAs and their results in general show that modern British are very close to British Celts with a significant but still minor Germanic/Scandinavian(Anglo-Saxon) influence. They are not mostly Scandinavian+Germanic, in fact Anglo-Saxons were very Scandinavian-like themselves. The older Celtic substratum is very much present and still dominant. Whether continental Celts - especially those earlier ones in Iberia and Italy were the same, we can't tell until we have samples.
    "the Southern Europeans help in pulling apart the Insular Celts and uber Germanics, because they stretch the plot both along the east > west and north > south clines."

    What is he assuming to be British Celts or where are they supposed to be located? England_Roman? England_IA?
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  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by emc View Post
    Sure, I didn't post them both at once because it would be to long.
    She was born here in Brazil. Her grandparents were from Mantova, Reggio Emilia, Padova and Northern Tuscany.


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 27.62
    2 East_Med 24.14
    3 West_Med 23.64
    4 Baltic 11.61
    5 West_Asian 8.86
    6 Red_Sea 2.41
    7 Oceanian 0.61
    8 Northeast_African 0.57
    9 East_Asian 0.53

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 2.46
    2 North_Italian 5.92
    3 West_Sicilian 8.41
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.95
    5 Greek_Thessaly 9.56
    6 Central_Greek 12.24
    7 East_Sicilian 12.68
    8 Bulgarian 13.93
    9 South_Italian 13.95
    10 Portuguese 14.27
    11 Spanish_Extremadura 14.32
    12 Romanian 14.38
    13 Spanish_Andalucia 15.03
    14 Spanish_Murcia 15.17
    15 Ashkenazi 15.27
    16 Spanish_Valencia 15.53
    17 Spanish_Galicia 15.73
    18 Spanish_Cataluna 16.17
    19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 16.4
    20 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 17.02

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 72.9% North_Italian + 27.1% Ashkenazi @ 1.83
    2 95.4% Tuscan + 4.6% South_Polish @ 1.88
    3 95.6% Tuscan + 4.4% Ukrainian @ 1.89
    4 93.9% Tuscan + 6.1% Hungarian @ 1.9
    5 94.4% Tuscan + 5.6% Croatian @ 1.91
    6 94.5% Tuscan + 5.5% East_German @ 1.92
    7 96% Tuscan + 4% Polish @ 1.93
    8 91.8% Tuscan + 8.2% Serbian @ 1.93
    9 96.2% Tuscan + 3.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.93
    10 94.1% Tuscan + 5.9% Austrian @ 1.94
    11 96.7% Tuscan + 3.3% Lithuanian @ 1.94
    12 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.94
    13 96.6% Tuscan + 3.4% Estonian @ 1.94
    14 96.1% Tuscan + 3.9% Southwest_Russian @ 1.94
    15 96.7% Tuscan + 3.3% La_Brana-1 @ 1.94
    16 94.1% Tuscan + 5.9% Moldavian @ 1.95
    17 96.4% Tuscan + 3.6% Belorussian @ 1.95
    18 90.5% Tuscan + 9.5% Romanian @ 1.95
    19 96.4% Tuscan + 3.6% Estonian_Polish @ 1.95
    20 95.7% Tuscan + 4.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.96
    She looks more similar to Tuscans and Central Italians than North. Interesting with the "Jewish" part as well. And no Spanish detected!

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