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Thread: North Italian VS Spanish Admix

  1. #21
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    East Med is probably too high in her case to match Spanish. I bet you'll see it with less.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    "the Southern Europeans help in pulling apart the Insular Celts and uber Germanics, because they stretch the plot both along the east > west and north > south clines."

    What is he assuming to be British Celts or where are they supposed to be located? England_Roman? England_IA?
    Well those are pre-Germanic British Celts (probably insular, but they could have theoretically come originally from the mainland) and as you can see they all but one fall within the England+Wales clusters.
    https://i.imgur.com/laHHW7y.png
    https://i.imgur.com/ftwYink.png
    Clearly they have a large continuity from the pre-AS period, eventhough some individuals show a clear pull towards the Dutch or Iceland/Norway.


    The point is that we cannot say "Modern British people are either not Celtic or very little" because this is seemingly untrue. But this does not imply other Celts had the same genetic profile, because as you know Celtic is a very broad umbrella term. The Bylany samples from Czechia are different from the British ones and more in line with modern Belgians - which I assume implies a higher neolithic farmer background on their part.
    My prudent bet is that early Cisalpine and Iberian Celts will follow this trend, before mixing with the native population and becoming more similar to modern inhabitants rather than contemporary British Celts, but we'll see in time
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Well those are pre-Germanic British Celts (probably insular, but they could have theoretically come originally from the mainland) and as you can see they all but one fall within the England+Wales clusters.
    https://i.imgur.com/laHHW7y.png
    https://i.imgur.com/ftwYink.png
    Clearly they have a large continuity from the pre-AS period, eventhough some individuals show a clear pull towards the Dutch or Iceland/Norway.


    The point is that we cannot say "Modern British people are either not Celtic or very little" because this is seemingly untrue. But this does not imply other Celts had the same genetic profile, because as you know Celtic is a very broad umbrella term. The Bylany samples from Czechia are different from the British ones and more in line with modern Belgians - which I assume implies a higher neolithic farmer background on their part.
    My prudent bet is that early Cisalpine and Iberian Celts will follow this trend, before mixing with the native population and becoming more similar to modern inhabitants rather than contemporary British Celts, but we'll see in time
    As I am probably an ignorant suffering of the Dunning-Kruger effect, I have several issues with the map.

    At the end of the day I guess the problem is indeed defining what was a Celt because from the map I only see that English, Scotts and Irish all close together belonging to a sort of Scandinavian/Germanic cluster with the Orcadians overlapping.

    Hallstat is located at the right side of the cluster but I cannot appreciate correctly its shape and it is a pity La Tene is not mapped (is it?). If it would show itself further to the right and touching the Mediterraneans, I would not be surprised.

    What key makes you think that the slight split (if any) in the left cluster placing the British on the top is not related to a differentiation between Germanic and insular pre-indoeuropeans instead of Celtic people?. Is not the presence of the Orcadians in the club a hint in that direction?
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 09-24-2018 at 01:45 PM.
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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    As I am probably an ignorant suffering of the Dunning-Kruger effect, I have several issues with the map.

    At the end of the day I guess the problem is indeed defining what was a Celt because from the map I only see that English, Scotts and Irish all close together belonging to a sort of Scandinavian/Germanic cluster with the Orcadians overlapping.

    Hallstat is located at the right side of the cluster but I cannot appreciate correctly its shape and it is a pity La Tene is not mapped (is it?). If it would show itself further to the right and touching the Mediterraneans, I would not be surprised.

    What key makes you think that the slight split (if any) in the left cluster placing the British on the top is not related to a differentiation between Germanic and insular pre-indoeuropeans instead of Celtic people?. Is not the presence of the Orcadians in the club a hint in that direction?
    What "insular pre-indoeuropeans"? Insular pre-IE in Britain were pre-BB Neolithic farmers that were related to Iberian ones, according to an ISBA2018 abstract, and wouldn't be placed anywhere near there on this sort of PCA (just look at where Basque-influenced South French samples are). Whether that position is a consequence of earlier BB ancestry under the Brythonic/Gaelic Celtic one, I do not know.

    If you want to get technical about it, I can't really help you. The best bet would be to talk with Davidski since he made the whole thing.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 09-24-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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  7. #25
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    The pre IE as far as I know is a mix of neolithic farmers and paleolithic Hunter-Gatherers. The proportion of the later is lower as you move to the SE of Europe. The picture I had in my mind is the population of farmers gradually moving forward to the NW from the middle East like an ameba throwing its pseudopods. As it progressed it pushed away and/or assimilated the HG but the HG population managed to survive at the fringes of Europe, specially where agriculture was difficult and farmers were restricted to microclimates.

    People from these areas should have a higher proportion of HG markers than the ones in the Mediterranean, the Balkans or southern Germany.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 09-24-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    The pre IE as far as I know is a mix of neolithic farmers and paleolithic Hunter-Gatherers. The proportion of the later is lower as you move to the SE of Europe. The picture I had in my mind is the population of farmers gradually moving forward to the NW from the middle East like an ameba throwing its pseudopods. As it progressed it pushed away and/or assimilated the HG but the HG population managed to survive at the fringes of Europe, specially where agriculture was difficult and farmers were restricted to microclimates.

    People from these areas should have a higher proportion of HG markers than the ones in the Mediterranean, the Balkans or southern Germany.
    Sure, but that's not relevant to what's being discussed here, Britain had a 90% replacement rate when the BBs arrived. The earlier neolithic substratum is fairly irrelevant for modern Brits, or even Iron age ones. That's not what's causing them to have their current position.
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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    I am not yet completely sure what Iberian category exactly tries to measure. So far when I see it as a category in admixtures calculators I have interpreted it as an attempt to match ancient and ancestral Iberian people contribution and in that case any Celtic/Germanic mix is (or should be) completely excluded. In that case Spaniards and Portuguese are never going to be 100% Iberian. You'll never find such a thing. They will always show a high score there together with other minor but significant contributions that try to map the "non-southmediterranean" side that all Spaniards and Portuguese have (Mostly Celtic, Germanic and Basque).

    If the term "Iberians" is used here as an attempt to identify some sort of paradigmatic hispanic-portuguese genetic signature indeed a higher North African admixture than Italians is expected but it is so small that I doubt it could make any difference.

    Despite being somehow quite homogeneous compared to the rest of Europe, if we try to refine its internal genetic admixture, the Iberian peninsula seems to have several "flavors" that show a clear West/East pattern instead of a expected North/South one. Funny enough the North African admixture is higher in the West but fades quickly as you move to the East (it actually disappears) mostly ignoring any possibility of North/South axis despite the fact that North Africa is obviously very close to the south of Iberia. It therefore seems to go together with the most "celtic" iberians while it fades among the most "mediterranean" ones.
    iberian ethnic mix should be split by north and south of the peninsula ..........with catalan, arogonese, navaresse, galician and leonese being north and others south.

    north-italians with any iberian admixture never has any north african.......from what i have seen so far

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    iberian ethnic mix should be split by north and south of the peninsula ..........with catalan, arogonese, navaresse, galician and leonese being north and others south.

    north-italians with any iberian admixture never has any north african.......from what i have seen so far
    Iberia varies on a West-East cline, not North-South
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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Iberia varies on a West-East cline, not North-South
    i know, but there is a case for a north-south mix.............the only north -south mix i know that worked was leonese with castilian .....which is why i think we need to look at a north-south difference

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Sure, but that's not relevant to what's being discussed here, Britain had a 90% replacement rate when the BBs arrived. The earlier neolithic substratum is fairly irrelevant for modern Brits, or even Iron age ones. That's not what's causing them to have their current position.
    But even the Bell Beakers had a 30% Neolithic farmer component. So basically the Bell Beakers were a EMBA steppe + ENF + WHG hybrid population that replaced the near pure ENFs in Britain.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 09-24-2018 at 06:51 PM.

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