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Thread: Regional G25 Neolithic vs EBA Britain

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    Last post, to illustrate:

    Attachment 26277

    "distance%=1.9578"
    Jessie
    Isles_EBA,94.6
    Neolithic,5.4

    "distance%=1.5907"
    Garimund
    Isles_EBA,82.6
    Neolithic,17.4
    Thanks for doing this.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yep, this is what the picture looks like with methods that are largely insensitive to recent drift, like formal stats. But there are two major problems with it...

    - it's not possible that there was a rise in Globular Amphora ancestry in Britain since the Beaker invasion without continued gene flow from continental Europe, because Globular Amphora was located in Eastern Europe, so we have to assume that it was a bounce back in Britain_N ancestry. But if so, then the fact that the methods you're using can't tell the difference between ancient populations native to Britain and Eastern Europe should raise a bit of an alarm

    - in this PCA sensitive to recent drift, take a look how England_IA cluster relative to Britain_&_Ireland_BA. And especially note the unusual position of one of the England_IA samples. This doesn't look like a bounce back in local Neolithic ancestry, because it's way too late (Iron Age), but rather like a new population coming in, probably from what is now France (Hallstatt? Belgae?).

    weren't the hinxton Britons Belgae? IIRC they were from Belgae territory. Pethaps there could have been a significant migration into England? We really need some early medieval Irish for a point of comparison..

    I can't help but think that Capitalis's theory might be a good explanation for some parts of the Isles, but not for the region as a whole.
    Last edited by sktibo; 10-01-2018 at 05:52 AM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    weren't the hinxton Britons Belgae? IIRC they were from Belgae territory. Pethaps there could have been a significant migration into England? We really need some early medieval Irish for a point of comparison..

    I can't help but think that Capitalis's theory might be a good explanation for some parts of the Isles, but not for the region as a whole.
    The methods are definitely sensitive - Globular_Amphora and Neolithic_Isles are in nMonte conflict; I'm at the limit of my use of these tools really. Still having fun though.

    Attachment 26319
    Last edited by Capitalis; 10-01-2018 at 03:45 PM.
    My ancestry: 53% S Eng, 2% N Eng, 39% Ire, 6% S Wal
    LivingDNA: 53% S Eng, 7% E Anglia, 15% SW Scot, 9% S Wal, 8% Brit Isles, 4.5% Basque/Sardinian/Tuscan, 3.4% Chechen/Indian/Kurdish

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    weren't the hinxton Britons Belgae? IIRC they were from Belgae territory. Pethaps there could have been a significant migration into England? We really need some early medieval Irish for a point of comparison..

    I can't help but think that Capitalis's theory might be a good explanation for some parts of the Isles, but not for the region as a whole.

    Judging from the following, the Belgae were primarily to the South & Southwest of where the Hinxton samples were found.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._South.svg.png

    Hinxton is at the central Southern extent of the area in red.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...on_map.svg.png


    The precise extent of their conquests is unknown. After the Roman conquest of Britain, the civitas of the Belgae was bordered to the North by the British Atrebates, who were also a Belgic tribe, and to the east by the Regnenses, who were probably[citation needed] linked to the Belgae as well.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae


    Edit: Although, it should be noted that the Catuvellauni, who were also Belgic in origins, were in the general vicinity of Hinxton during the time period in question. So perhaps, wrong tribal name right origins.

    http://roman-britain.co.uk/tribes/catuvellauni.htm

    I guess a lot depends on the dating of the samples, too.

    —- Uncalibrated — Calibrated
    L - 2155±35BP — 360 - 50 BCE

    HI1 - 2039 ±27 — 160 BCE - 26 CE

    HI2 - 2029±49BP — 170 BCE - 80 CE

    https://media.nature.com/original/na...ms10408-s1.pdf
    Last edited by JMcB; 10-01-2018 at 08:09 PM.
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 900 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 1030 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1550 AD).

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    I looked through my attachments uploaded to Anthrogenica and I posted this model on 16/9 using Hallstatt. Don't know if it has value or not though.
    My ancestry: 53% S Eng, 2% N Eng, 39% Ire, 6% S Wal
    LivingDNA: 53% S Eng, 7% E Anglia, 15% SW Scot, 9% S Wal, 8% Brit Isles, 4.5% Basque/Sardinian/Tuscan, 3.4% Chechen/Indian/Kurdish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    The methods are definitely sensitive - Globular_Amphora and Neolithic_Isles are in nMonte conflict; I'm at the limit of my use of these tools really. Still having fun though.

    Attachment 26319
    Certainly, but sometimes these things can produce observations and ideas - I think you have come up with an idea which is certainly possible. I was wondering about why some of the descendants of the Insular beakers appear to be less Steppe shifted and thought it might have been due to some migration, but for whatever reason didn't consider intermixing with the Neolithic remnants, which, although small in number, might be different enough to make a marked change. I mentioned in another thread how amazing it is that some of the Beakers appear not to have changed much or at all in their PCA position when compared to the modern people from the Celtic Fringe, while at the same time the position of the Iron Age Britons and some of the Roman Britons certainly appear to have changed (I'm referencing the Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA.) I'm excited to see what new data and insights will come next.
    Last edited by sktibo; 10-01-2018 at 04:45 PM.
    Paper trail ancestry to the best of my knowledge:
    English (possibly containing some Welsh ancestry) 31.25%, Eastern European and Eastern German (Galicia, Poland) 25%, Scottish 17.96%, Scotch-Irish 12.5%, French 8.2%, Native American 1.95%, and Colonial American, 3.125%, which cannot be determined with complete certainty: there is Dutch (at least 1.36%) and some English. The rest could include Spanish, Norwegian, German, and French, but these percentages would be minuscule.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Certainly, but sometimes these things can produce observations and ideas - I think you have come up with an idea which is certainly possible. I was wondering about why some of the descendants of the Insular beakers appear to be less Steppe shifted and thought it might have been due to some migration, but for whatever reason didn't consider intermixing with the Neolithic remnants, which, although small in number, might be different enough to make a marked change. I mentioned in another thread how amazing it is that some of the Beakers appear not to have changed much or at all in their PCA position when compared to the modern people from the Celtic Fringe, while at the same time the position of the Iron Age Britons and some of the Roman Britons certainly appear to have changed (I'm referencing the Eurogenes Celtic vs Germanic PCA.) I'm excited to see what new data and insights will come next.
    I think I'm right in saying that the Iron Age Briton samples are the Cambridgeshire ones from a few years ago, so all SE England?

    I'd really be interested in seeing Iron Age samples from further north and west in Britain. They may well be similar to IA England, but thinking in terms of the Iron Age archaeology, the continental influence is seen most in SE Britain with the west and north being more remote, as has often been the case throughout history.

    South.Britain.Late.Iron.Age.jpg
    Last edited by avalon; 10-01-2018 at 09:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yep, this is what the picture looks like with methods that are largely insensitive to recent drift, like formal stats. But there are two major problems with it...

    - it's not possible that there was a rise in Globular Amphora ancestry in Britain since the Beaker invasion without continued gene flow from continental Europe, because Globular Amphora was located in Eastern Europe, so we have to assume that it was a bounce back in Britain_N ancestry. But if so, then the fact that the methods you're using can't tell the difference between ancient populations native to Britain and Eastern Europe should raise a bit of an alarm

    - in this PCA sensitive to recent drift, take a look how England_IA cluster relative to Britain_&_Ireland_BA. And especially note the unusual position of one of the England_IA samples. This doesn't look like a bounce back in local Neolithic ancestry, because it's way too late (Iron Age), but rather like a new population coming in, probably from what is now France (Hallstatt? Belgae?).

    Where would England_CA_EBA:I2462 plot on that PCA and what would your thoughts be on this individual?
    My ancestry: 53% S Eng, 2% N Eng, 39% Ire, 6% S Wal
    LivingDNA: 53% S Eng, 7% E Anglia, 15% SW Scot, 9% S Wal, 8% Brit Isles, 4.5% Basque/Sardinian/Tuscan, 3.4% Chechen/Indian/Kurdish

  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Judging from the following, the Belgae were primarily to the South & Southwest of where the Hinxton samples were found.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._South.svg.png

    Hinxton is at the central Southern extent of the area in red.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...on_map.svg.png


    The precise extent of their conquests is unknown. After the Roman conquest of Britain, the civitas of the Belgae was bordered to the North by the British Atrebates, who were also a Belgic tribe, and to the east by the Regnenses, who were probably[citation needed] linked to the Belgae as well.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae


    Edit: Although, it should be noted that the Catuvellauni, who were also Belgic in origins, were in the general vicinity of Hinxton during the time period in question. So perhaps, wrong tribal name right origins.

    http://roman-britain.co.uk/tribes/catuvellauni.htm

    I guess a lot depends on the dating of the samples, too.

    —- Uncalibrated — Calibrated
    L - 2155±35BP — 360 - 50 BCE

    HI1 - 2039 ±27 — 160 BCE - 26 CE

    HI2 - 2029±49BP — 170 BCE - 80 CE

    https://media.nature.com/original/na...ms10408-s1.pdf
    Apart from the 1.6% of my ancestry from Warrington (founded by the Romans...), the vast majority of my English ancestry lies in the formerly Belgae and Atrebates regions and I am apparently continentally shifted, being on the edge of the modern Isles G25 references. But a lot of time has passed since then and I don't know where my Irish ancestry fits in to this picture.
    My ancestry: 53% S Eng, 2% N Eng, 39% Ire, 6% S Wal
    LivingDNA: 53% S Eng, 7% E Anglia, 15% SW Scot, 9% S Wal, 8% Brit Isles, 4.5% Basque/Sardinian/Tuscan, 3.4% Chechen/Indian/Kurdish

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post
    Where would England_CA_EBA:I2462 plot on that PCA and what would your thoughts be on this individual?
    Is that the MN farmer-like outlier? If so, then deep in the French cluster. But it's unlikely that people like this can explain England_IA, which comes much later.

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