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Thread: Post HarappaWorld results

  1. #1911
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Ultimately yes that is most likely.

    But I have also maintained the possibility of migrations from western Tibet via the antecedent river passes (eg. Sarayu-Karnali). This would bring folk to the terai where we see early settlements.
    See the so called 'vedic' mounds of Lauriya near Bettiah in modern Bihar close to the modern Nepal border.
    "Notwithstanding the wide extent and long duration of Vedic civilisation in Northern India, there is but one group of monuments now existing to which there is any warrant for assigning a Vedic origin. These are the well-known mounds at Lauriya Nandangarh in Bihar"
    http://www.isec.ac.in/Cambridge_%20h...ia_%20vol2.pdf

    This scenario would help explain few issues - how the BMAC was bypassed and how the earliest portion of the Rg shows contacts with the Munda and not Dravidian.
    Maybe they came on unicorns to Bihar Parasar but ephedra does not grow in Bihar so womp womp. Also Your conflating Austro Munda with Para Munda ,Jean did extensive work on this and I remember her vividly correcting you on this a few times.


    I really doubt this, on linguistic grounds, as given earlier in this thread. The IVS population appears to have been absorbed into that of the incoming II speakers. Words from the IVS language appear to have been borrowed into Indic. Then the IVS language disappeared. Dravidian appears to have been the language of hunter-gatherers who domesticated the South Indian farming package.* As farmers, their population would have multiplied, so that their language survived and indeed grew into a whole family of languages, which was not obliterated by the Indic group.

    I would take a guess that Y-DNA J2a was the predominant Y-DNA in IVS males, and Y-DNA H of some type in Proto-Dravidian speakers.

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  3. #1912
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Can you give some references for the munda contact?
    Dr. Witzel of Harvard.
    https://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/MT-Substrates.pdf
    "The prefixes of the RV substrate are, however, close to, or even identical with those of Proto-Munda ... Among the c. 380 'foreign' words of the RV, those with certain prefixes are especially apt to be explained from Munda (viz. directly from Austro-Asiatic) ..."


    Kuiper thought the early borrowing was perhaps pre-Munda or perhaps even pre-Malay:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=fiavPYCz4dYC&pg=PA301

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  5. #1913
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Maybe they came on unicorns to Bihar Parasar but ephedra does not grow in Bihar so womp womp. Also Your conflating Austro Munda with Para Munda ,Jean did extensive work on this and I remember her vividly correcting you on this a few times.
    ...
    Jean M (RIP) was a historian on Europe not a Indo-Aryan linguist.

    Para Munda is a terminology made up by Witzel just to clarify that we are not talking about Munda.
    "The prefixes of the RV substrate are, however, close to, or even identical with those of Proto-Munda; taking my
    clue from Kuiper (1962: 51,102; but see now Zide MT II, 1996, 96), I will therefore call this substrate language Para-Munda for the time being."

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  7. #1914
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    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)
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    R1a1-L657 (R-Y16494)
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    I think it's hard to guess the origin of L657. There aren't any exclusively non-Indian subclades immediately downstream of it, and F1417 apparently has South Asian branches? (I don't see any on YFull).

    If L657 arose in India, we should be seeing plenty of Y2, Y3 sibling clades of it in South Asia too. Unless somehow the L657 lines completely replaced the others, which seems a stretch.

    But if L657 arose outside, we should see more non-South Asian L657 lines.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

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  9. #1915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    I think it's hard to guess the origin of L657. There aren't any exclusively non-Indian subclades immediately downstream of it, and F1417 apparently has South Asian branches? (I don't see any on YFull).

    If L657 arose in India, we should be seeing plenty of Y2, Y3 sibling clades of it in South Asia too. Unless somehow the L657 lines completely replaced the others, which seems a stretch.

    But if L657 arose outside, we should see more non-South Asian L657 lines.
    L657 is much older than 4000 years. Indo-Aryans arrived later than 4000 years in South Asia so it can be pretty much excluded that it was born there. Neither i think that Y4 or Y9 were born in South Asia they also seem older than 4000 years. I would not give too much importance to the modern distrubtion of clades. This can be very misleading.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog)> R-L657> R-Y4 (Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun/Indo-Aryan)

    mtDNA: H28 (Globular Amphora, Bronze Age Latvia) > H28a (Ruthenian)

    mtDNA (Wife): H1b (found in Globular Amphora, EBA Poland, Bronze Age Latvia) > H1b5 (found in Viking-Age Gotland) > H1b5 (Russian)

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  11. #1916
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    My Results

    Jalu.PNG
    Jalu1.PNG
    Jalu3.PNG
    Jalu4.PNG
    Dad :- Punjabi ; Mom :- Half Haryana + Half Madhya Pradesh

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  13. #1917
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    Quote Originally Posted by gildesh View Post
    Jalu.PNG
    Jalu1.PNG
    Jalu3.PNG
    Jalu4.PNG
    Dad :- Punjabi ; Mom :- Half Haryana + Half Madhya Pradesh
    Interesting mix! Your dad is Saini? You should get both your parents tested, especially your mom.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494*) (FTDNA Kit 311047) (YFull: YF68408), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29*) (FTDNA Kit 329181) (YFull: YF65256))

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  15. #1918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    L657 is much older than 4000 years. Indo-Aryans arrived later than 4000 years in South Asia so it can be pretty much excluded that it was born there. Neither i think that Y4 or Y9 were born in South Asia they also seem older than 4000 years. I would not give too much importance to the modern distrubtion of clades. This can be very misleading.
    The date given for I6561 from radiocarbon is almost as precise as one can get: 40453974 calBCE or ~6000 ybp.
    This sample is Y26+ Y2-. The split for Y26 per YFull is: "Y26/M780 formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp." https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3/
    If so, YFull is off by 27.66% for this line.

    How about Y2353? https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2353/
    Its split date is 3400 ybp per YFull. Applying the correction 27.66% for this line we have 4340 ybp.
    Would this line meet with your date for Indo-Aryan presence in India?

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  17. #1919
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    Yes both mom and dad.
    I think from my maternal grandmother side, some strong ASI admix is definitely present.

  18. #1920
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    Quote Originally Posted by gildesh View Post
    Yes both mom and dad.
    I think from my maternal grandmother side, some strong ASI admix is definitely present.
    Do you have access to any more Saini kits?

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