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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Didn't Parasar once stated the R1a clade in tribals is different from Brahmins and the ones found in NW groups like Khatris and Sindhis? Maybe he can shed some light on it. The R1a in Tribals might have come via ANE pop since it is found in tribals as well, actually kind of has affinity to Onge too.
    I think the post you are talking about is the one on tamil brahmin R1a
    he said that Tamil Brahmins have Z2123/Z2124 lines that are more typically associated with Northern Pashtuns/Dards etc as opposed to L657(standard Indic).
    My theory on this is that the R1a lines among early Indics may have had more subclade diversity which gradually decreased as groups split up, but these lines became bottlenecked in migrant derived groups (Tamil Brahmins).

    I don't recall him mentioning any other tribal group.

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  3. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    It’s a good point. My knowledge of haplogroups is pitiful but I’ve just looked up the origin date for R1a and it’s paleolithic so it’s very plausible to be something WSHG related. Another alternative is it could have come with some CHG type ancestry. I think someone pointed out tribals score high Caucasian...this is a map(possibly dated) of the origin of R1a:
    Attachment 32413

    And check that “oldest expansion”...nuff said
    The study is quite old but I do see the point, if you look at oldest expansion of R1a highlight on map. Also it is also noted a lot of R1a clades arrived via Arab coast, so it's easier to make it to South if you take the Coastal route.
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    ive got non-Brahmin-mixed Nair (Nambiar) R1a kit thats likely to be L657 brewing in my email for when i get home

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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    I think the post you are talking about is the one on tamil brahmin R1a
    he said that Tamil Brahmins have Z2123/Z2124 lines that are more typically associated with Northern Pashtuns/Dards etc as opposed to L657(standard Indic).
    My theory on this is that the R1a lines among early Indics may have had more subclade diversity which gradually decreased as groups split up, but these lines became bottlenecked in migrant derived groups (Tamil Brahmins).

    I don't recall him mentioning any other tribal group.
    Also we are talking about the tribals, not brahmins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Also we are talking about the tribals, not brahmins.
    Yeah, and I heard from someone that Harvard deemed 3 Rakhigarhi R1a samples - those which also seemed to have a steppic signal apparently (lol) - to be contaminated and only chose the low coverage Irula like (haplo can't be resolved beyond F*) sample. The OIT plot thickens...

  9. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Didn't Parasar once stated the R1a clade in tribals is different from Brahmins and the ones found in NW groups like Khatris and Sindhis? Maybe he can shed some light on it. The R1a in Tribals might have come via ANE pop since it is found in tribals as well, actually kind of has affinity to Onge too.
    I think they were not tested for Z93 and just for R1a but untill yet there is no reason to assume that they are Z93-. R1a was not present in early BMAC and pre-Andronovo Central Asia(Botai,..) so it looks unlikely that R1a was present even more in the south. It is more likely that some R1b existed in Pre-Indo-Iranian South Asia. R1b existed in Botai and had a wider distribution that R1a.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  11. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    They have a lot of pseudo Steppe , even Irula can be modelled with 10% but its all MA1/AG3 related and arrived in the UP.

    Make no mistake though the minor Steppe ancestry and the L657 is largely being supplied by SI Brahmins , they are THE main vector for this ancestry here. While they themselves were quite endogamous, the men definitely were having illicit sexual relations with other women from other groups and I am pretty sure it was quite common as they positioned themselves at the cultural apex. Its an uncomfortable reality for many but its a fact. Just look at the Southern US during the Slave period. Also, this is not just exclusive to this region, men in power positions having sexual relations with women of lower castes or socio-economic backgrounds is common throughout history.
    first mention of Brahmins in Kerala is near 700AD

    Modern population: The Nambudiri Brahmans today make up less than 1 percent of the Hindu population of Kerala, but their status as the former elite of the state makes them important to document. (Kerala is about 50-55% Hindu so 1% of that)

    Southern USA during the slave period was what, 80% slaveowner 20% slave?

    and heres the social environment for Brahmin mixing out with a lower caste (Thiyya) for context (last few sentences)



    Brahmins cannot explain R1a prevalence or low level steppe ancestry seen in most Kerala samples at all, they are also a very small population of all other Southern states
    Last edited by bmoney; 08-14-2019 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Whats your reasoning here? are you using models?

    I would ask why are Brahmins migrating to the South and not others over the long timeframes between Dravidian presence in the Rg Veda to now. Was it some form of wealth restriction preventing travel? the Asokan empire covered most of the South and chances are they didnt have a Brahmin-only army. Brahmins by caste restriction could not fight

    Non-Brahmins (who form 98% or so of the population of Southern India) being slaves to the Brahmins under a US Southern system goes against history and sense, this is not the case at all

    Your theory would require Brahmins to come defenseless (too innumerous to be military which they were restricted from anyway) to a supposedly foreign land where they subjugate the entire South Dravidian population to match the US scenario where weapons and armies were involved

    Your premise would also go against our record keeping and certain adna results

    FYI there were many migrating Indo-Aryan groups, Saurashtrians, Brahmins, Banjaras, and R1a is even present in Sri Lankan Tamils who dont have Brahmins. If UP Jatts can keep their extremely distinctive genetic signal with no cultural memory of Tocharian or East Iranic or theorised source pop, Indo-Aryan groups over millenia would not be able to keep historical records of initial migrations after assimilating into Dravidian society and mixing in genetically. But R1a always pops up in the top 3 y-dna signatures of every South Indian study which a numerically small caste like Brahmins cannot be the whole reason for
    Agree with you here . R1a and minor steppe components found in non -brahmin South Indians cannot be attributed to the brahmins as they were a small population not enough to make a big impact . My thinking is that much of R1a arrived during the Buddhist / Jain period before majority of the Brahmins came to South India . That would be the only way populations like Ezhavas and Syrian Christians of Kerala have high percentages of R1a .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Itís also possible that some of the R1a in South India preceded (parasar alluded to it being much older than in the North) the arrival of the Indo Aryans and is actually MA1/ANE/WSHG related.
    That is improbable since the main South Indian R1a clades are same as North Indian R1a clades ie L657 ,Y40 and Z2123 . There might be one or two samples with older subclades among tribals but I haven't seen it . Anyway it is too rare .The only exotic R1a lines in South India is from a Marathi and a Konkani from Yfull who are in a separate subclade under Z93 ie Z94- . Those samples are from UK so chances of them being tribal or low caste is infinitesimally small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    That is improbable since the main South Indian R1a clades are same as North Indian R1a clades ie L657 ,Y40 and Z2123 . There might be one or two samples with older subclades among tribals but I haven't seen it . Anyway it is too rare .The only exotic R1a lines in South India is from a Marathi and a Konkani from Yfull who are in a separate subclade under Z93 ie Z94- . Those samples are from UK so chances of them being tribal or low caste is infinitesimally small.
    I mostly speaking with regards to tribals. Do lower castes in South India have the same subclades as Northerners too?
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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