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Thread: South Asian HarappaWorld results

  1. #4261
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    We have two malayali R1b from ftdna projects. Both have not tested further but from STRs i guess they don't belong to L51 subclades.One of them is a Hindu Nair and the other is a Syrian Christian. There are three other R1b tested through 23andme as well. Out of them two are again Syrian Christians and one is a hindu.
    Beyond the colonial possibilities of R1b, here is what eupedia has to say

    "The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."

    So , should not be totally unexpected, do we anglo indian Y-DNA , or any luso indian , franco indian??.....

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  3. #4262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koonger View Post
    R1b subclades in south asia are different from modern Europeans? Is it not possible these are from recent colonial time ?
    Continuing on what Parashar had said, I don't think those isolated tribals and small isolated groups like Lambadi would have much contact with the British.

  4. #4263
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    Quote Originally Posted by vishankar View Post
    Beyond the colonial possibilities of R1b, here is what eupedia has to say

    "The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."

    So , should not be totally unexpected, do we anglo indian Y-DNA , or any luso indian , franco indian??.....
    ISOGG says the same thing about the origin of M269 in Middle East. I think the presence of ancient R1b in India mirrors H, C and some R2 s in Europe.

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  6. #4264
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Do you know of the study that had those Newari R1b? Given their R1b is M269, then there is a chance of a direct European paternal lineage during colonial times, as European missionaries were widespread in Kathmandu/Newari-population center before the Gorkha/Khas expansion expelled the missionaries after the Gorkha conquest of Kathmandu.
    This 2007 research studied the Newar samples.

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  8. #4265
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Do you know of the study that had those Newari R1b? Given their R1b is M269, then there is a chance of a direct European paternal lineage during colonial times, as European missionaries were widespread in Kathmandu/Newari-population center before the Gorkha/Khas expansion expelled the missionaries after the Gorkha conquest of Kathmandu.
    Yes that is why I mentioned the Bhutan M269 bhu-1953 sample - "The addition of Central Asian chromosomes here contributes a sequence to the deepest subclade of R1b-M269" Not likely western European, but Turki or Inner Asiatic TB perhaps.


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...707609446#fig2
    "The second-most abundant major clade is haplogroup R, which occurs at an average frequency of 24.70% (frequency range of 2.5%–62.1%). It includes most of the Newar (62.1%) and Kathmandu (46.8%) groups but is significantly less represented in Tamang (8.8%) and Tibet (2.5%). Haplogroup R1b1a-M269 is found only in Newar (10.6%), whereas R1a1-M198 is present in all four collections (fig. 2). Similarly, haplogroup R2-M124 occurs in all four Himalayan populations, generally exhibiting frequencies equivalent to R1a1-M198, except for the Kathmandu, where R2-M124 (10.4%) is less frequent than R1a1-M198 (35.1%) (fig. 2)."


    I remember analyzing the Nepal R1a1 STRs and predicting that they were nearly all L657 - later confirmed by Underhill 2014.

    Bhutan also has another interesting sample: bhu-1892 Y-T M70*, mt-M9a1a1a
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article...lementary-data
    Ebizur:
    Last edited by parasar; 09-20-2020 at 07:29 PM.

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  10. #4266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koonger View Post
    R1b subclades in south asia are different from modern Europeans? Is it not possible these are from recent colonial time ?
    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Colonial era R1b is probably the easiest/default explanation (unless shown otherwise), but colonial-era paternal Y-chr should be restricted to the specific Indian communities, rather than found in countries like Bhutan and Nepal.
    The majority of South Asian R1b comes under R-Z2103 and the majority of Northern/Western European R1b comes under R-L151. The most recent common ancestor of R-Z2103 and R-L151 lived around 6170 years ago (6100 ybp) according to YFull (their most recent common subclade of these two is R-L23). Other estimates are available elsewhere but I would wager that this is a fairly accurate estimate as it's based on the number of SNPs that go downstream of R-L23 across thousands of different samples, that occur within the combBED region of the Y chromosome, which is reliable for phylogenetic analysis. If most of the R1b in South Asia are products of colonialism within the last 500 years or so, the TMRCA estimates between European and most South Asian samples should be around 500 ybp, or at the very least, much lower than 6170 ybp. Of course, parasar is also correct when he states that there are R1b lineages in South Asia that split off very early from the line leading to R-L23.

    Even regarding subclades of R-Z2103 with both European and South Asian samples within them, their TMRCA estimates are still far too large to be explained by colonialism. Of course, there are cases of colonial-era R-L151 in India but as poi said, these lineages are generally only observed in specific communities (i.e. Anglo-Indians) and are rare compared to R-Z2103 in South Asia that are currently observed. R-Z2103 is also present in Northern/Western Europe, but is far less frequent than R-L151, so it's unlikely that colonials would've contributed much if any Z2103 at all considering how few of them even left Europe in the first place.
    Last edited by aaronbee2010; 09-21-2020 at 09:31 PM.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-SK2142 > Y1383* - M5a1a (185G)
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-Z2109 > Y84821 - U7a3a5a
    * MGMs MGF: R1a-Z93 > Y7 - ?

    Friends Haplos:
    * North Moroccan Berber: E-M35 > M81 - R0
    * Han Chinese: O-M117 > F1531 - M7e
    * Gujarati Lohana: T-M70 > Y11151 - R30b1

    Hidden Content

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  12. #4267
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    ISOGG says the same thing about the origin of M269 in Middle East. I think the presence of ancient R1b in India mirrors H, C and some R2 s in Europe.
    Eupedia and ISOGG are both wrong.

    R1b was present in Europe during the Upper Paleolithic but there's no evidence that it was present in Asia at the same time.

    And there's no way that M269 can be from the Middle East. It's obviously from Eastern Europe.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 09-21-2020 at 01:15 AM.

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  14. #4268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Eupedia and ISOGG are both wrong.

    R1b was present in Europe during the Upper Paleolithic but there's no evidence that it was present in Asia at the same time.

    And there's no way that M269 can be from the Middle East. It's obviously from Eastern Europe.
    I wasn't discussing the point of origin of that haplogroup. It could have originated anywhere from East Europe to Siberia to Middle East. And I don't believe we have unearthed every aDNA in human history to confirm that. My mention of ISOGG was in reply to that particular comment on Eupedia.

    My point of discussion rather was based on 1-3 samples of R1b detected in Narasimhan et al 2018 labelled as Iran/Turan C, Iran/Turan BA and South Asia IA which might be the source of R1b in those isolated populations and tribes in India.

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  16. #4269
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    I wasn't discussing the point of origin of that haplogroup. It could have originated anywhere from East Europe to Siberia to Middle East. And I don't believe we have unearthed every aDNA in human history to confirm that. My mention of ISOGG was in reply to that particular comment on Eupedia.
    That's not how these things work. You don't have to sequence everyone who was ever alive to draw very robust conclusions from the data.

    If M269 and its ancestral mutations are specific to ancient populations originating in Europe, and they are, then the chances of M269 being from the Middle East are very slim.

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  18. #4270
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    Quote Originally Posted by vishankar View Post
    Beyond the colonial possibilities of R1b, here is what eupedia has to say

    "The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."

    So , should not be totally unexpected, do we anglo indian Y-DNA , or any luso indian , franco indian??.....
    From the STRs I would guess both of them are downstream of R-Z2103. So I would not expect them to be Anglo related. Anyway the Anglo descendants self identify as Anglo Indians so the European R1b will be found among them.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

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