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Thread: South Asian HarappaWorld results

  1. #3811
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    Quote Originally Posted by loggedin View Post
    Aren’t Balochis mixed too? I am not sure I understand what this grouping means in this context.

    I didn’t think it was so unique but it is very curious that we are apparently a product of mixing of two very different looking populations but now marry very, very closely among our relations. In the case of Potoharis and other Muslim Indian communities, arguably too closely. Cousin marriage in this part of Pakistan is very, very high.
    The Baloch component in Harappa is just named after Balochi because it is modal in them and their neighboring Brahui/Makrani (these 3 pops score between 53-55% or so Baloch on Harappa). Other calculators refer to the component as Gedrosia. The component itself is made up of more ancient components commonly referred to as Iran N (Iranian Neolithic), AASI (Ancient Ancestral South Indian Hunter Gatherers) and WSHG (West Siberian HG).

    The other Harappa components such as NE European or South Indian are modal in moderns such as Lithuanians or South Indian tribals like the Paniya.

    Anyways, Harappa is an outdated GEDMatch admixture calculator. It's just the most relevant for South Asians. Hence, it is often used as a baseline for looking at South Asian genetics. These days, the most accurate and respected genetics modeling is done using G25 coordinates based on your genome. You test with one of the commercial genome testing services (23andMe, AnestryDNA, MyHeritage, FTDNA, LivingDNA, etc.) and then download you raw data once available and send it to Eurogenes for your coordinates. You can then be modeled using ancient proxies for the main elemental ancestral streams for South Asians such as:

    1. Iran N (Neolithic Iranian farmers who migrated from somewhere near the Zagros in Iran to South Asia and mixed with AASI to form the IVC); though the new Shinde paper argues there was a cousin group to Iran N and refers to it as Iran Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers who lived near the IVC and developed farming on their own.
    2. AASI (Ancient Ancestral South Indian; This is the most indigenous South Asian ancestry. It is theorized as the first out of Africa population to have migrated to South Asia. It peaks in South Indian tribals such as Paniya and Irula. It ranges from around 15-16% at the lowest to 70% at the highest in South Asia (some neighboring South Central Asian groups such as Pashtuns and Northern Dardic groups have notable amounts of it as well; some far South/Eastern Iranians have minor amounts as well).
    3. Steppe MLBA (the ancient ancestry most associated with the migrating Indo-Aryans). Sintashta and Srubnaya or Corded Ware cultures are usually used as proxies for this in South Asians.
    4. West Siberian Hunter Gatherer (WSHG); North Siberian related ancestry and commonly associated with the ancient "Mal'ta boy" from the Mal'ta–Buret' culture. This is most relevant to Northern Europeans, Central Asians, South Asians and Native Americans.
    5. BMAC: It's an acronym for the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex from Central Asia. It is a combination of Iran N ancestry + minor Anatolian Neolithic Farmer ancestry + some WSHG.
    6. ANF (Anatolia Neolithic Farmer): This is farmer ancestry from Anatolia (modern Turkey). It is distinct from Iran N (Iranian Neolithic farmer ancestry).
    7. East Eurasian related ancestry modeled using moderns such as Han from China or the ancient Chokhopani from Nepal.

    BMAC and Steppe MLBA are the only non elemental ancients above. BMAC is a mix of elemental such as Iran N, ANF and WSHG. Steppe MLBA is usually a mix of EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer) and ANF. Other non elemental ancients relevant for South Asians are usually IVC related ancients, Swat ancients, etc. from various time periods. IVC ancients are mostly a mix of Iran N + AASI while Swat ancients are Iran N + AASI + Steppe MLBA.

    This is just a quick summary. You're better off googling and doing your own research for a more detailed understanding of these ancients. There are a multitude of genetics paper on South Asia that explain them.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-04-2020 at 08:25 AM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  3. #3812
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    So was it the steppe migrants who were bringing recessive traits into what was a largely a dark skinned, dark haired foundational population of the subcontinent? Analogous to Europeans in the Americas, and their interaction with Africans and/or Natives. From what I am learning somehow groups with more influence/higher status seem to have greater inheritance from the former (Steppe/Baloch/Caucasian) rather than the latter (Indigenous SI). Is this the basic story of the peopling of the subcontinent and how it influenced social hierarchies? I assume these are too politically charged questions. So will DNA testing as an individual from this region tell me anything beyond this story? I am on the fence on submitting my DNA. I was curious to know if there is anything more granular or surprising I could learn, that doesn’t fit the seemingly established pattern.

  4. #3813
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    Quote Originally Posted by loggedin View Post
    So was it the steppe migrants who were bringing recessive traits into what was a largely a dark skinned, dark haired foundational population of the subcontinent? Analogous to Europeans in the Americas, and their interaction with Africans and/or Natives. From what I am learning somehow groups with more influence/higher status seem to have greater inheritance from the former (Steppe/Baloch/Caucasian) rather than the latter (Indigenous SI). Is this the basic story of the peopling of the subcontinent and how it influenced social hierarchies? I assume these are too politically charged questions. So will DNA testing as an individual from this region tell me anything beyond this story? I am on the fence on submitting my DNA. I was curious to know if there is anything more granular or surprising I could learn, that doesn’t fit the seemingly established pattern.
    Phenotype discussion is generally not allowed on the forum. More than likely, most recessive lighter traits may have come with the Indo-Aryans but it's hard to say for sure (some of it is likely a mix of recessive traits with climate/altitude adaption and sexual selection perhaps). I don't necessarily recommend going to Razib's blog to get an idea about genetics (a lot of what he discusses is pseudoscience) but apparently the Sintashta were mostly a dark haired and dark eyed group. It's also likely the case that migrating Indo-Aryans mixed with BMAC related populations somewhere in South Central Asia as well so some lighter traits may have come via them as well.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09...-were-swarthy/

    Anyways, if this is the case, it's not surprising the most Steppe shifted South Asians aren't particularly light haired or eyed groups.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-03-2020 at 08:08 PM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  6. #3814
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    Karachi Muhajir (Syed on both sides: mother's from Delhi, father's from/around UP)

    Population %:

    1 S-Indian 35.31
    2 Baloch 32.74
    3 NE-Euro 8.71
    4 Caucasian 6.9
    5 Mediterranean 6.11
    6 SW-Asian 3.83
    7 NE-Asian 2.83
    8 Siberian 2.59
    9 Beringian 0.74
    10 Papuan 0.11
    11 San 0.08
    12 American 0.04


    Single Population Sharing:

    1 up-muslim (harappa) 5.87
    2 nepalese-a (xing) 8.51
    3 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 8.61
    4 up-brahmin (harappa) 8.89
    5 punjabi (harappa) 9.18
    6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 9.34
    7 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 9.4
    8 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.65
    9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 9.73
    10 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.89
    11 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 9.95
    12 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 10.14
    13 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 10.36
    14 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 10.38
    15 vaish (reich) 10.6
    16 kashmiri (harappa) 10.83
    17 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 11.59
    18 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 11.64
    19 cochin-jew (behar) 11.8
    20 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 11.82


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    1 88.9% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.1% morocco-n (henn2012) @ 4.16
    2 88.5% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.5% algeria (henn2012) @ 4.21
    3 82.8% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17.2% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.24
    4 89.5% up-brahmin (harappa) + 10.5% tunisia (henn2012) @ 4.28
    5 89% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11% mozabite (hgdp) @ 4.3
    6 88.4% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.6% libya (henn2012) @ 4.33
    7 89.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 10.8% saharawi (henn2012) @ 4.36
    8 88.7% up-brahmin (harappa) + 11.3% moroccan (behar) @ 4.39
    9 80.7% gujarati (harappa) + 19.3% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 4.4
    10 82.5% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17.5% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.41
    11 81.3% gujarati (harappa) + 18.7% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 4.43
    12 82.3% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 17.7% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.44
    13 80.6% gujarati (harappa) + 19.4% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.44
    14 81.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 18.1% ashkenazy-jew (behar) @ 4.45
    15 82.1% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 17.9% ashkenazi (harappa) @ 4.45
    16 83% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 17% sephardic-jew (behar) @ 4.46
    17 78.4% kerala-nair (harappa) + 21.6% romanian-a (behar) @ 4.49
    18 87.6% bengali-brahmin (harappa) + 12.4% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.5
    19 63.3% dharkar (metspalu) + 36.7% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 4.52
    20 84.5% vaish (reich) + 15.5% morocco-jew (behar) @ 4.58
    Just a question for those who know more than me. Are groups like "up-muslim" and "up-brahmin" considered separate ethnicities? I.E. is there an "Uttar Pradeshi" ethnic group like there are Sindhis, Punjabis, Pashtuns, etc.? Are the people of UP the native speakers of Hindi/Urdu?

  7. #3815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Phenotype discussion is generally not allowed on the forum. More than likely, most recessive lighter traits may have come with the Indo-Aryans but it's hard to say for sure (some of it is likely a mix of recessive traits with climate/altitude adaption and sexual selection perhaps). I don't necessarily recommend going to Razib's blog to get an idea about genetics (a lot of what he discusses is pseudoscience) but apparently the Sintashta were mostly a dark haired and dark eyed group. It's also likely the case that migrating Indo-Aryans mixed with BMAC related populations somewhere in South Central Asia as well so some lighter traits may have come via them as well.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09...-were-swarthy/

    Anyways, if this is the case, it's not surprising the most Steppe shifted South Asians aren't particularly light haired or eyed groups.
    I don't know if this is relevant, but just an observation I've noticed is that my relatives who are the result of more endogamous marriages tend to be lighter; a couple of my grandfather's siblings are/were albino, but even those relatives descended from the non-albino siblings but still from cousin marriages seem to be lighter on average.

  8. #3816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Phenotype discussion is generally not allowed on the forum. More than likely, most recessive lighter traits may have come with the Indo-Aryans but it's hard to say for sure (some of it is likely a mix of recessive traits with climate/altitude adaption and sexual selection perhaps). I don't necessarily recommend going to Razib's blog to get an idea about genetics (a lot of what he discusses is pseudoscience) but apparently the Sintashta were mostly a dark haired and dark eyed group. It's also likely the case that migrating Indo-Aryans mixed with BMAC related populations somewhere in South Central Asia as well so some lighter traits may have come via them as well.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09...-were-swarthy/

    Anyways, if this is the case, it's not surprising the most Steppe shifted South Asians aren't particularly light haired or eyed groups.
    I wouldn’t expect steppe shifted south Asian populations to be light haired, light skinned if a considerable portion of their ancestry relates to SI, upwards of 30%, along with the Balochi element, being the most prominent elements. The interesting bit, to me, is how this all relates to caste hierarchy. The story of how/why the more indigenous people were marginalized/dominated, yet still their genes permeate through everyone, just to different extents. Anyway, it doesn’t seem like it’s worth doing any DNA testing if it’s just going to tell the same story as everyone else’s.

  9. #3817
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    Just a question for those who know more than me. Are groups like "up-muslim" and "up-brahmin" considered separate ethnicities? I.E. is there an "Uttar Pradeshi" ethnic group like there are Sindhis, Punjabis, Pashtuns, etc.? Are the people of UP the native speakers of Hindi/Urdu?
    It probably depends on who you ask. To some, ethnicity is a more fluid concept and for others, it is a rigid identity. Some base it on linguistics/culture and others on "blood" aka autosomal DNA. Personally, I wouldn't say "Uttar Pradeshi" is as cohesive identity when compared to Punjabi or Gujarati. For example, would a West UP Urdu speaking Muslim identify at all with a Brahmin from East Uttar Pradesh? AFAIK, Uttar Pradesh can be divided into 4 separate agro - climatic-ecological regions (also can be called economic regions;Western, Central, Bundelkhand and Eastern). I don't want to make too many presumptions but it's likely that each region has its own ethno-cultural identity to some extent even if they are all part of the Hindi speaking belt. On a separate note, I don't think I've ever heard someone from Uttar Pradesh called themselves Uttar Pradeshi. Make of that what you will.


    Quote Originally Posted by loggedin View Post
    I wouldn’t expect steppe shifted south Asian populations to be light haired, light skinned if a considerable portion of their ancestry relates to SI, upwards of 30%, along with the Balochi element, being the most prominent elements. The interesting bit, to me, is how this all relates to caste hierarchy. The story of how/why the more indigenous people were marginalized/dominated, yet still their genes permeate through everyone, just to different extents. Anyway, it doesn’t seem like it’s worth doing any DNA testing if it’s just going to tell the same story as everyone else’s.
    You're too focused on the South Indian component, which is a mix of Iran N, AASI and WSHG. It's not purely AASI.

    As I mentioned previously, there are South Asians which are approximately only 15-16% AASI (based on ancient and simulated models) but yet at the same time, some of them are also 25% + Steppe MLBA. At the peak, there are South Asians who are over 30% Steppe MLBA but only 15-16% AASI yet these groups still aren't particularly light haired/eyed or "light skinned" for that matter. Also, the "Balochi" element or Iran N to be more precise is in the 30-40% range for many of these individuals. In other words, the overwhelming majority of their ancestry is Iran N + Steppe MLBA. AASI is in the minority.

    Unless you have documented foreign ancestry, it's unlikely you will have a "unique" story compared to others from your region. However, it's still worth testing to see how your haplogroups factor into the populating of South Asia/ancient migrations or how similar your autosomal DNA is to ancient cultures (IVC, BMAC, Swat, etc.)
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-04-2020 at 08:31 AM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  11. #3818
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    Quote Originally Posted by loggedin View Post
    I wouldnít expect steppe shifted south Asian populations to be light haired, light skinned if a considerable portion of their ancestry relates to SI, upwards of 30%, along with the Balochi element, being the most prominent elements. The interesting bit, to me, is how this all relates to caste hierarchy. The story of how/why the more indigenous people were marginalized/dominated, yet still their genes permeate through everyone, just to different extents. Anyway, it doesnít seem like itís worth doing any DNA testing if itís just going to tell the same story as everyone elseís.
    Cousin marriage causes genetic defects

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  13. #3819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    It probably depends on who you ask. To some, ethnicity is a more fluid concept and for others, it is a rigid identity. Some based it on linguistics/culture and others on "blood" aka autosomal DNA. Personally, I wouldn't say "Uttar Pradeshi" is as cohesive identity when compared to Punjabi or Gujarati. For example, would a West UP Urdu speaking Muslim identify at all with a Brahmin from East Uttar Pradesh? AFAIK, Uttar Pradesh can be divided into 4 separate agro - climatic-ecological regions (also can be called economic regions;Western, Central, Bundelkhand and Eastern). I don't want to make too many presumptions but it's likely that each region has its own ethno-cultural identity to some extent even if they are all part of the Hindi speaking belt. On a separate note, I don't think I've ever heard someone from Uttar Pradesh called themselves Uttar Pradeshi. Make of that what you will.




    You're too focused on the South Indian component, which is a mix of Iran N, AASI and WSHG. It's not purely AASI.

    As I mentioned previously, there are South Asians which are approximately only 15-16% AASI but yet at the same time, some of them are also 25% + Steppe MLBA. At the peak, there are South Asians who are over 30% Steppe MLBA but only 15-16% AASI yet these groups still aren't particularly light haired or eyed. Also, the "Balochi" element or Iran N to be more precise is in the 30-40% range for many of these individuals so. In other words, the overwhelming proportions of their ancestry are Iran N + Steppe MLBA. AASI in the minority.

    Unless you have documented foreign ancestry, it's unlikely you will have a "unique" story compared to others from your region.
    Whatever SI is, it seems to correlate to caste rank. This is what makes interesting to me. When I see the proxies used to represent SI, such as tribals of India, I cannot say their features are completely foreign. I can see their features in my people in varying extents. I am wondering about the story and connection there.

    With regards to what is interesting, it doesn’t necessarily have to be “foreign” ancestry to be interesting. The story would be interesting too, if I could observe my ancestry was more similar to so-called low caste/Dalit groups rather than Jatts/Rajputs of the region. I’ve always found it off that my clan takes enormous pride in being “Langrial Rajput” but the tribe’s history is cloudy and is not particularly well known. I just never understood it and thought possibly understanding of genetics could help in answering questions like this and others.

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  15. #3820
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    Quote Originally Posted by akash View Post
    Cousin marriage causes genetic defects

    Are you calling blonde hair and blue eyes a genetic defect? Lol

    It doesnít cause genetic defects, as far as I know. It increases the likelihood of autosomal recessive genetic disorders to be passed down from one generation to the next.

    Genetic defects themselves are caused by a mutation in a single gene, or multiple genes, or by a chromosomal abnormality.

    The above said, I am not a proponent of cousin marriage because of the increased risk associated with it AND moreover the sociological problems it can contribute to (e.g. community is closed off, insular). I married outside of my ethnicity.

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