South Asian HarappaWorld results

**Bengali** · 09-17-2022, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by tipirneni

The Q clades found among Kammas and Kerala Christians look different from yours. You have to check the Deccani Muslims and Turkic muslims in Hyderabad and other places to compare.

H-Z5890 looks like is found among Senguptas etc.. but there might be other lineages. This H clade is found in Karnataka, TN, AP etc.. might be from the Sena dynasty etc.. recent movements

Thanks so much for the response! I'm quite certain that my Q did not come with the Islamic era. There is one other Q that shares my haplogroup (Q-YP502) and I think that person is very likely from Kerala (based on checking the mtdna) and I think either a Nair or a Brahmin (about 50% of Pathanamthitta Nairs have U1a1c1d, and the mtDNA for the Q-YP502 sample that shares my haplogroup is U1a1c1d2b). I don't think steppe lineages are widespread in South India, so I can't think of any other reason why haplogroup Q would come up. In addition, there is a group of Iyer Brahmins in Kerala called Brahacharanam, who have 19% Q-M242, and although they don't have more resolution of that haplogroup, I suspect it's the one that I share.

I was trying to figure out the mystery of why a Brahmin or a Nair from Kerala would share a haplogroup with a Bengali Muslim from Bangladesh in the last 2100 years...at the very least I'm very confident that it's from Kerala - not as certain that it's a Brahmin or a Nair but I can't think of any other groups in Kerala that would have steppe lineages AND share U1a1c1d mtDNA. In the clade above mine (Q-Z36070) there's one other Bangladeshi who has minor increased steppe admixture according to Monkey D Luffy, and the clade above mine (Q-FT310425) there is a person from Turkey. I also checked all the ancient samples and it lines up really well with the Indo European expansion. Hence why I thought that the groups most likely for the other Q-YP502 are Brahmins and Nairs. And since there are no Nairs in Bengal, I thought that perhaps it was Brahmin in origin. Do let me know if my logic here doesn't make sense!

If there's any other reason why there would be two samples sharing a relatively recent TMRCA (2100) years from South India and Bangladesh, and is steppe in origin, please let me know! I just want to try to find out the truth.

**Kaazi** · 09-17-2022, 06:02 PM

Kashmiri Pandit (Raina) 164249 SNPs used in this evaluation
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.58
2 S-Indian 30.14
3 Caucasian 15.15
4 NE-Euro 9.08
5 Siberian 2.43
6 Beringian 1.56
7 SW-Asian 1.37
8 NE-Asian 1.33
9 American 0.66
10 Mediterranean 0.56
11 San 0.15

Kashmiri Pandit from Srinagar/Jammu (Dhar) 52614 SNPs used in this evaluation
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.68
2 S-Indian 30.47
3 Caucasian 13.09
4 NE-Euro 8.92
5 Siberian 2.27
6 Mediterranean 1.92
7 E-African 1.15
8 SW-Asian 0.98
9 Beringian 0.81
10 American 0.42
11 Pygmy 0.23
12 San 0.05

Kashmiri Pandit from Srinagar/Jammu (Mam) 52530 SNPs used in this evaluation mt-haplo: U1a1. Most East Asian shifted Pandit.
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.19
2 S-Indian 33.21
3 Caucasian 12.59
4 NE-Euro 10.83
5 NE-Asian 3.72
6 SW-Asian 1.37
7 American 1.09

AG User dhw's Kashmiri Pandit mom 52637 SNPs used in this evaluation mt-haplo: H14
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 34.9
2 S-Indian 32.49
3 Caucasian 16.28
4 NE-Euro 10.9
5 NE-Asian 2.99
6 American 1.66
7 Mediterranean 0.5
8 Beringian 0.27

AG User dhw's Kashmiri Pandit maternal relative 52511 SNPs used in this evaluation Most Steppe shifted Pandit and also least East Asian/Siberian I guess.
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.35
2 S-Indian 34.36
3 Caucasian 13.03
4 NE-Euro 12.08
5 Beringian 1.58
6 American 1.57
7 NE-Asian 0.41
8 San 0.38
9 SW-Asian 0.25

**Bengali** · 09-17-2022, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bengali

Thanks so much for the response! I'm quite certain that my Q did not come with the Islamic era. There is one other Q that shares my haplogroup (Q-YP502) and I think that person is very likely from Kerala (based on checking the mtdna) and I think either a Nair or a Brahmin (about 50% of Pathanamthitta Nairs have U1a1c1d, and the mtDNA for the Q-YP502 sample that shares my haplogroup is U1a1c1d2b). I don't think steppe lineages are widespread in South India, so I can't think of any other reason why haplogroup Q would come up. In addition, there is a group of Iyer Brahmins in Kerala called Brahacharanam, who have 19% Q-M242, and although they don't have more resolution of that haplogroup, I suspect it's the one that I share.

I was trying to figure out the mystery of why a Brahmin or a Nair from Kerala would share a haplogroup with a Bengali Muslim from Bangladesh in the last 2100 years...at the very least I'm very confident that it's from Kerala - not as certain that it's a Brahmin or a Nair but I can't think of any other groups in Kerala that would have steppe lineages AND share U1a1c1d mtDNA. In the clade above mine (Q-Z36070) there's one other Bangladeshi who has minor increased steppe admixture according to Monkey D Luffy, and the clade above mine (Q-FT310425) there is a person from Turkey. I also checked all the ancient samples and it lines up really well with the Indo European expansion. Hence why I thought that the groups most likely for the other Q-YP502 are Brahmins and Nairs. And since there are no Nairs in Bengal, I thought that perhaps it was Brahmin in origin. Do let me know if my logic here doesn't make sense!

If there's any other reason why there would be two samples sharing a relatively recent TMRCA (2100) years from South India and Bangladesh, and is steppe in origin, please let me know! I just want to try to find out the truth.

If you go one more clade above, to Q-Z5901: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Z5901/

You'll notice that there are a number of Indian samples. Q-Y3411 (TMRCA 1600 ybp) looks to be clustered in North India (Punjab) and Pakistan, and Q-Y28562 (TMRCA 3300 years ago) appears to be clustered in South India.

So Q-Z5901 is clustered in North India (Punjab)/Pakistan, South India, and Bangladesh. If you go a clade above Q-Z5901 (Q-Y1150) there is a sister lineage that clusters in Pakistan/Afghanistan. I can't think of anything that would spread these lineages in India throughout Afghanistan, North India (Punjab)/Pakistan, South India, and Bangladesh other than the Indo-European migrations. These populations also appeared to have formed in South Asia in the mid-to-late Bronze Age, which lines up very well with the Indo-Aryan expansion.

I think the way to determine what my father's ancestors may have been with some degree of certainty prior to converting to Islam is to determine what Indo-European groups make up the different castes in Bangladesh. I am really unfamiliar with this topic hence why I've been asking on the forum. The only reason why I thought Brahmin/Baidya/Kayastha was because I thought these were the Indo-Aryan groups in Bangladesh, but if there are more, please let me know! My family is very unfamiliar with castes, I think they've only heard of Brahmin and that's about it.

**iyer** · 09-17-2022, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by surasena

It's not possible to be 100% certain about your ancestry going by calculator results.
Also, the minor components need not be stressed on, most of these are noise. We can't make useful inferences from them
, they just pop up randomly as a calculator effect in most cases (if it's consistently showing up, for instance EA in Kashmiris or Med in Jats/Brahman, then it's actually pointing towards something)

As for which groups they resemble, I would simply say 'Bangladeshi/Bengali Muslim'. As of now I haven't seen a Bengali Hindu counterpart community of these results.
As Iyer pointed out, Kayasth/Baidyas seem to be in between this generic Bangladeshi(lower EA ones) like you, and Bengali Brahmins.

Though it's just a guess, I would say Mahishyas/Sadgope of West Bengal may be the closest to your result.
Note that this doesn't mean you are not having Baidya/Kayastha or even Brahmin ancestry. We just can't be certain about it with this info. I would advice searching up your family history, it may be helpful if your family are relatively recent converts.

Here is a kayastha and a bangladeshi who score very similar amounts of ne euro and baloch tho source of East eurasian ancestry is different in both ,
Bengali kayastha and iirc he was of the kulin subcaste going by his surname.

S-Indian: 44.65%
Baloch: 27.33%
Caucasian: 0.69%
NE-Euro: 9.57%
SE-Asian: 5.28%
Siberian: 0.46%
NE-Asian: 6.93%
Papuan: 1.17%
American: 0.00%
Beringian: 2.38%
Mediterranean: 0.00%
SW-Asian: 1.28%
San: 0.00%
E-African: 0.00%
Pygmy: 0.00%
W-African: 0.26%

Bengali Muslim (Chowdhury)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.79
2 Baloch 27.57
3 SE-Asian 9.25
4 NE-Euro 8.31
5 Caucasian 3.87
6 NE-Asian 2.38
7 Beringian 2.04
8 Papuan 1.68
9 Siberian 0.08
10 SW-Asian 0.04

**Bengali** · 09-17-2022, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by iyer

Here is a kayastha and a bangladeshi who score very similar,
Bengali kayastha and iirc he was of the kulin subcaste going by his surname.

S-Indian: 44.65%
Baloch: 27.33%
Caucasian: 0.69%
NE-Euro: 9.57%
SE-Asian: 5.28%
Siberian: 0.46%
NE-Asian: 6.93%
Papuan: 1.17%
American: 0.00%
Beringian: 2.38%
Mediterranean: 0.00%
SW-Asian: 1.28%
San: 0.00%
E-African: 0.00%
Pygmy: 0.00%
W-African: 0.26%

Bengali Muslim (Chowdhury)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 44.79
2 Baloch 27.57
3 SE-Asian 9.25
4 NE-Euro 8.31
5 Caucasian 3.87
6 NE-Asian 2.38
7 Beringian 2.04
8 Papuan 1.68
9 Siberian 0.08
10 SW-Asian 0.04

Thank you Iyer! Just to clarify, do you mean similar to my family or similar to Mahishya/Sadgope? Or do you mean the two kits resemble each other? Apologies for myconfusion.

To me, it would be logical that the majority of Bangladeshi Muslims (if not all of them) derive at least some of their ancestry from Baidya/Kayastha/Brahmin. I would think there would be an East Asian/Tribal shift after conversion since they would likely not be endogamous anymore and wouldn't marry within their caste. But I don't know that much on this topic so I defer to you all.

Could anyone clarify what the Indo-Aryan groups would be in Bangladesh? Is it just limited to Baidya/Kayastha/Brahmin, or were there other Indo-Aryan groups? I just wanted to learn more about how the Indo-Aryans (Indo-Europeans? Indo-Iranians? I get confused haha) got to Bengal and then what their descendants ended up doing, because I think that's what my paternal haplogroup indicates. I think that's what I've also heard from most users on the forum, that it was Indo-Aryan in origin. But I really don't know much about this topic, if there's anywhere I can learn about Indo-Aryans in Bangladesh and what castes they were, that would be great.

**iyer** · 09-17-2022, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bengali

Thank you Iyer! Just to clarify, do you mean similar to my family or similar to Mahishya/Sadgope? Or do you mean the two kits resemble each other?

Thank you! Apologies for my confusion

No I meant their are some bengali muslims and kayasthas/baidyas who score very similarly , your family can be modelled as some lower east asian higher si kayasthas or baidyas with a bit of a tribal shift.

**Bengali** · 09-17-2022, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by iyer

No I meant their are some bengali muslims and kayasthas/baidyas who score very similarly , your family can be modelled as some lower east asian higher si kayasthas or baidyas with a bit of a tribal shift.

Thank you! Were there any other Indo-Aryan groups in Bangladesh except for Kayasthas/Baidyas/Brahmins? Surasena had mentioned Mahishya/Sadgope, so I got a little confused.

**iyer** · 09-17-2022, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bengali

Thank you! Were there any other Indo-Aryan groups in Bangladesh except for Kayasthas/Baidyas/Brahmins? Surasena had mentioned Mahishya/Sadgope, so I got a little confused.

Their are many castes like kayasthas , baidyas , namasudra, mahishya etc.Their is no particular community Bangladeshis descend from ,but going by your family history it is possible your paternal side were kayasthas or baidyas who converted tho seemed to have mixed with all types of Bangladeshis without practising endogamy.

**Bengali** · 09-17-2022, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by iyer

Their are many castes like kayasthas , baidyas , namasudra, mahishya etc.Their is no particular community Bangladeshis descend from ,but going by your family history it is possible your paternal side were kayasthas or baidyas who converted tho seemed to have mixed with all types of Bangladeshis without practising endogamy.

Thanks for letting me know! Yes, my family doesn’t practice endogamy at all, people in our family have typically married based on educational attainment.

When the Indo Aryans came to Bangladesh, they divided themselves into many different castes not just Baidya/Kayastha/Brahmin, but also namasudras and Mahishyas and many more? I had thought the castes were just Baidya/Kayastha/Brahmin in Bangladesh, I appreciate you letting me know this.. Are all castes in Bangladesh descended from the Indo-Aryans migrations?
https://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Aryans

“But there is no reason to believe that the Aryans came to Bengal on any large scale ever. Those who came earlier made their new home habitable by making many spots holy for visiting. Thus Bengal entered into the Aryan culture, though the Upper Ganges Aryans did never recognise the lower riperian peoples fit for association. The Aryans lived in Bengal having maintaining a lot of restrictions about their interactions with the local people.”

I just read this, and I’m trying to piece together the history. It seems like there wasn’t a massive migration of the Indo Aryans to Bangladesh. Did the local people become incorporated into the various Bangladeshi castes, or did one only have a caste if their origins were Indo-Aryan?

**iyer** · 09-17-2022, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bengali

Thanks for letting me know! So basically, when the Indo Aryans came to Bangladesh, they divided themselves into many different castes not just Baidya/Kayastha/Brahmin, but also namasudras and Mahishyas and many more? I had not known that! Are all castes in Bangladesh originated in the Indo-Aryans/steppe?

Most of these castes were present before migrating to modern day bengal except for maybe some like baidyas , most of the bengali castes probably originated further west in East up or bihar region who can be considered indo aryans .

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