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Thread: Basque Speaking P312 Origin Debunked

  1. #1
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    Basque Speaking P312 Origin Debunked

    For many years posters, especially those of Basque ancestry, have pushed for a Basque speaking origin of P312. The total replacement of paternal Neolithic markers by Bronze Age P312 men in Indo-European speaking Britain and Ireland should have dashed the hopes of even the most fervent pushers of the Basque narrative, but alas they chose to soldier on.

    While not as well publicized, Central Europe shows a similar pattern to that found in Britain and Ireland. Three dozen Bell Beaker samples from Bohemia all belong to P312+ U152+ L2. From the same area, a Hallstatt sample dated to 836-780 BC was also found to be U152+ L2+. The Romans named Bohemia (Boiohemum) after the Celtic-Gaulish speaking Boii. Bell Beaker and Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture (1691-1519 BC) samples from Augsburg, Germany also show U152 and L2. Once again the naming used by the Romans shows the Celtic origins of the area as it was called Augusta Vindelicorum (Augusta of the Vindelici). The Vindelici were a Gaulish speaking tribe belonging to the La Tene Culture. Here is a map of the core Hallstatt areas with triangles showing Hallstatt cart burials:



    From Iberia, we now have the Olalde ISBA-2018 abstract which states the following:

    Beginning ~2500 BCE, the arrival of individuals with steppe-related ancestry had a rapid and widespread genetic impact, with Bronze Age populations deriving ~40% of their autosomal ancestry and 100% of their Y-chromosomes from these migrants. During the later Iron Age, the first genome-wide data from ancient non-Indo-European speakers showed that they were similar to contemporaneous Indo-European speakers and derived most of their ancestry from the earlier Bronze Age substratum.
    Another words, the same process of steppe introgression that occurred in Central Europe, Britain and Ireland also occurred in Iberia. However, the 60% non-steppe component that persevered in Iberia was enough to preserve the Copper Age Basque language in pockets. And finally, we have ancient genomes from Sardinia, This is from the Marcus et al abstract from ASHG 2018:

    We analyzed genome-wide capture data (~1.2 millions SNPs) of 26 ancient Sardinians spanning the Neolithic, Copper Age, and Bronze Age, including individuals from Sardinia's Nuragic culture. We confirm that ancient Sardinian samples show a strong affinity to early Neolithic samples and a near complete absence of the “Steppe” ancestry associated with Bronze Age expansions on the mainland.
    So in summary, areas where Celtic languages were spoken (Britain, Ireland, Bohemia and Bavaria) had 100% P312 but also very high levels of steppe ancestry. Iberia had a 100% P312 replacement but a 60% Copper Age automsomal survival which resulted in a mix of Indo-European and non-IE languages. And finally the island of Sardinia, which saw no major steppe introgression during the Bronze Age, retained its Basque-like language up until the Roman Period. It is no surprise that I2a1-M26 has a ~40% frequency in Sardinians and is only found in meaningful frequencies in modern day Basques and areas where ancient Iberian, another Basque-like language was spoken.

    As the youngsters like to say: Drop the mic, I'm out
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    Well said. Three early Iberian, non-Kurgan BB results from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in the Basque country in Spain were all I2 and lacked steppe autosomal dna (Lipson et al, 2017):

    I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

    I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

    I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

    Those are in addition to what Olalde et al found.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    R.Rocca, were you able to find any subclade of the 836 - 780 BC R-L2 sample from Bohemia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Pierre View Post
    R.Rocca, were you able to find any subclade of the 836 - 780 BC R-L2 sample from Bohemia?
    L2+ FGC4183+
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    And finally the island of Sardinia, which saw no major steppe introgression during the Bronze Age, retained its Basque-like language up until the Roman Period. It is no surprise that I2a1-M26 has a ~40% frequency in Sardinians and is only found in meaningful frequencies in modern day Basques and areas where ancient Iberian, another Basque-like language was spoken.
    Agree with your main point but I don't think there's anything anywhere even slightly close to a consensus on the relationship of Basque to Iberian and ancient Sardinian ?

    The wiki page on the Paleo Sardinian language mentions a few theories people are working on and the impression I get regarding Iberian is there's not enough known about it to produce reasonable theories.

    The Vasconic substratum theory was brought up on Eurogenes today but appears to be so full of holes that nobody outside the person that proposed it will give it any consideration.

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    R.Rocca, could you confirm if subclade assignements for these samples are correct (in red)?


    I0805 2467-2142 BC Quedlinburg Germany BB_Central_Europe R1b1a1a2a1a2b L51>L151 (>P312>U152>PF6658?)

    I2365 2465-2205 BC Budapest-Békásmegyer Hungary BB_Central_Europe R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L51>L151>P312>U152>L2 (>L20?)

    I1388 2455-2134 BC Marlens, Sur les Barmes, Haute-Savoie France BB_Southern_France R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L51>L151>P312 (>U152>L2>Z367?)

    I6774 2287-2044 BC Ditchling Road, Brighton, Sussex, England Great Britain Beaker Britain R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L51>L151 (>P312>U152>L2>Z367>L20?)

    I5750 2300-1900 BC De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland Netherlands BB_The_Netherlands R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L51>L151>P312 (>U152>L2>Z367>L20?)

    I2602 1900-1690 BC Thanet, Kent Great Britain Britain_Bronze_Age R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L51>L151>P312 (>U152>L2?)

    I2656_d 1278-979 BC Longniddry, Grainfoot, East Lothian, Scotland Great Britain Scotland_LBA R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L51>L151>P312>U152>L2 (>DF110?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well said. Three early Iberian, non-Kurgan BB results from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in the Basque country in Spain were all I2 and lacked steppe autosomal dna (Lipson et al, 2017):

    I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

    I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

    I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

    Those are in addition to what Olalde et al found.
    Interestingly Sardinia has one of the highest concentrations of Bell Beaker material in Italy. However, the material culture (e.g. collective burials) is heavily related to Iberian Bell Beaker.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Agree with your main point but I don't think there's anything anywhere even slightly close to a consensus on the relationship of Basque to Iberian and ancient Sardinian ?

    The wiki page on the Paleo Sardinian language mentions a few theories people are working on and the impression I get regarding Iberian is there's not enough known about it to produce reasonable theories.

    The Vasconic substratum theory was brought up on Eurogenes today but appears to be so full of holes that nobody outside the person that proposed it will give it any consideration.
    The research is recent, but that does not mean it is not directionally correct. Besides, this is not just about linguistics. From Chiang et al 2016:

    Using this metric, we find the Basque are the most similar to Sardinia, even more so than neighboring mainland Italian populations such as Tuscany and Bergamo (Figure S6A, S6). This relationship is corroborated by identityby-descent (“IBD”) tract length sharing, where among mainland European populations, French Basque showed the highest median length of shared segments.

    ...

    We find that Sardinia consistently showed increased sharing with the Basque populations compared to mainland Italians.

    ...

    In contrast, sharing with other Spanish samples in our dataset was generally weaker and not significant ( |Z| < 3.5; Figure S6C), suggesting the shared drift with the Basque is not mediated through Spanish ancestry.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Everything very interesting and makes a lot of sense. My only regret is that Z36 is still missing. My personal opinion is that it arrived more recently than L2 in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The research is recent, but that does not mean it is not directionally correct. Besides, this is not just about linguistics. From Chiang et al 2016:
    Interesting, wonder if there's any planned Sardinian aDNA papers ?

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