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Thread: Ancient genomes of Srubnaya, Cimmerians, Scythians and Sarmatians(Science, 2018)

  1. #121
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    Also Scy300 and Scy305 almost certainly do have a Thracian or some other Paleobalcanic origin. They only borrowed the Scythian culture without much being genetically affected.
    Here is a good review on this samples from a Russian blogger. The review is in Russian.

    https://vol-vlad.livejournal.com/1430.html
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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Here is a good review on this samples from a Russian blogger. The review is in Russian.
    Thank you for posting this link, indeed a good review.
    I guess vol_vlad might be a historian or archaeologist, there are really a lot of references on articles of Soviet/Russian archaeologists in his review.
    I will translate his major points into English, so that AG-users who do not speak Russian could discuss them .

    Review's author(vol_vlad) complains that western researchers do not read publications of Soviet/Russian archaeologists on Scythian culture (probably, that's because they are in Russian - that's my remark). Soviet/Russian researchers had no doubts, that steppe Scythes (or "true Scythes") and Cimmerians are two waves of migrants from Karasuk culture, while forest-steppe Scyths are called "Scythoids" and are descendants of late Yamnaya/Catacomb cultures, who adopted some Scythian customs and technologies.
    He argues that results of aDNA analysis confirm conclusions of Soviet/Russian archaeologists.

    His classification:
    scy009 and scy010 are Scythoids, scy006 is a woman of true Scythian origin, living in a Scythoid settlement.
    scy009* Starosillya Scythian 770 - 415 BCE XY J2b1a6 R1b1a1a2 YFull (R1b R-P312)
    scy010* Starosillya Scythian 790 - 540 BCE XX N1b1a -
    scy006* Starosillya Scythian ND XX D4j2 -

    scy011 is a true Scythian
    scy011* Nesterivka Scythian 355 - 115 BCE XX A -

    He argues that both scy192 and scy197 are too old to be Scythes, both radiocarbon dating and DNA analysis results confirm that both of them are of late Yamnaya/Catacomb period.
    scy192* Glinoe Scythian 2863 - 2503 BCE XX H8c -
    scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE XY U5a1a1 R1b1a1a2 YFull (E1b E-CTS1273)

    He argues that scy332 must be a hun woman:
    scy332* Glinoe Scythian 248 - 391 CE XX M10a1a1a -

    He argues that this people are mixed Scythes/late Yamnaya/Catacomb descendants (scy193 has only minor late Yamnaya/Catacomb admixture, three others are much more admixed).
    scy193* Glinoe Scythian ND XY U5a2a1 R1b1a1a2? YFull (R1a?? R-BY30764??)
    scy301 Glinoe Scythian 392 - 204 BCE XY U5b2a3 R1b1a1a2 YFull (I2a I-Y7219)
    scy304 Glinoe Scythian 361 - 172 BCE XY U4* R1b1a1a2 YFull (R1b R-Z2103)
    scy311* Glinoe Scythian 389 - 204 BCE XX T2b -

    He calls this people Geto-Thracians:
    scy300* Glinoe Scythian 397 - 209 BCE XX H5b -
    scy303* Glinoe Scythian 380 - 203 BCE XX U5a1a2b -
    scy305* Glinoe Scythian 399 - 209 BCE XY U5a2b R1b1a1a2 YFull (R1b R-Z2106)

    He says that Moldovian Cimmerians look like they are indeed descendants from Karasyk culture.
    cim357 Glinoe Sad Cimmerian 914 - 805 BCE XY H9a R1b1a YFull (R1a R-Z93)
    cim358 Glinoe Sad Cimmerian 936 -809 BCE XY C5c (50%) Q1a1
    cim359 Mokra Cimmerian 1008 - 838 BCE XX R -

    He argues that Late Sarmatians have definitely different ancestry if we compare them to Scyths.
    Anyway, we says, that Late Sarmatians might be descendants of Savromat tribes (there is no page in English wikipedia page for this group of tribes, in Russian they are spelled Савроматы, in ancient Greek Σαυρομάται). https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1...B0%D1%82%D1%8B

    chy001 Cherniy Yar Late Sarmatian 55 - 140 CE XX H2a1 -
    chy002 Cherniy Yar Late Sarmatian 65 - 220 CE XY T1a1 R1a1a YFull (R1a R-Y52)
    tem001 Temyaysovo Late Sarmatian 135 - 320 CE XX U5b2b -
    tem002 Temyaysovo Late Sarmatian 125 - 240 CE XY D4q R1b1a1a2 YFull (R1a R-FGC48758)
    tem003 Temyaysovo Late Sarmatian 130-320 CE XY U5b2b R1b1a1a2? YFull (R1a R-YP3920)

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Soviet/Russian researchers had no doubts, that steppe Scythes (or "true Scythes") and Cimmerians are two waves of migrants from Karasuk culture,
    I think one of the most important factors in karasuk expansion is their sword, which is closely related with seima turbino one. But I never heard that karasuk swords were found in east europe, which was found in China Bronze, shang dynasty.


    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...43956F2EDB4A28

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  7. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Thank you for posting this link, indeed a good review.

    He argues that both scy192 and scy197 are too old to be Scythes, both radiocarbon dating and DNA analysis results confirm that both of them are of late Yamnaya/Catacomb period.
    scy192* Glinoe Scythian 2863 - 2503 BCE XX H8c -
    scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE XY U5a1a1 R1b1a1a2 YFull (E1b E-CTS1273)

    He calls this people Geto-Thracians:
    scy300* Glinoe Scythian 397 - 209 BCE XX H5b -
    scy303* Glinoe Scythian 380 - 203 BCE XX U5a1a2b -
    scy305* Glinoe Scythian 399 - 209 BCE XY U5a2b R1b1a1a2 YFull (R1b R-Z2106)
    Thanks, for providing the translation.
    I've actually played around with the samples when they were released and concluded more or less the same.
    After my modelling, 192, 197 and 300 seemed like settled (possibly Getae) locals. I don't have access to 305, but in the paper he seems similar to 300.
    One thing that I don't agree on is 303.
    She seems to cluster comfortably with 09 and 10 Scythians.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    On the topic of Geto-Thracians, you might find this interesting: https://indo-european.info/indo-euro..._Thracians_and
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 01-24-2019 at 09:38 PM.
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