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Thread: R1b Ivanhoe

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    R1b Ivanhoe

    Apparentlly it has now been confirmed that this is an Iberian lineage. Previously it was thought that this originated in Britain and its carriers eventually converted to Judaism down the generations. But now it is confirmed that the origin is in Iberia.

    I have a few questions.

    1. This lineage is apparently very common in Scotland and England, but how common?

    2. If it is from Iberia is it without a doubt Sephardic Jewish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    Apparentlly it has now been confirmed that this is an Iberian lineage. Previously it was thought that this originated in Britain and its carriers eventually converted to Judaism down the generations. But now it is confirmed that the origin is in Iberia.

    I have a few questions.

    1. This lineage is apparently very common in Scotland and England, but how common?

    2. If it is from Iberia is it without a doubt Sephardic Jewish?
    R1b-U106 is a mostly Northern European haplogroup - where did you read Ivanhoe has been "confirmed" as an Iberian lineage? No ancient U106 has been tested and found in Iberia that I know of and I and a few others maintain a list of ancient DNA positive for U106+. What evidence is there that "confirms" Ivanhoe as coming from Iberia? I am not an expert on Ivanhoe (I'm more of an expert on my own subgroup DF98), but I know a few who are at the U106 yahoo group... it generally is a group who has several connections to the Isles, but also has strong connection to Eastern Europe going from memory. What down stream SNPs of U106 (in the Ivanhoe group) are you talking about? Could you list those?

    Just confused to the fact that "is is confirmed that the origin is Iberia." I doubt any group of U106 has it's origin in Iberia - based on the modern and ancient DNA that we have at the moment... did you read or see it somewhere else?

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 10-08-2018 at 05:38 PM.
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Captain Johann Martin Weber, 1st Pennsylvania (Long) Rifles/Rangers of the Frontier, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Rhineland, Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers of Eboracum.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    R1b-U106 is a mostly Northern European haplogroup - where did you read Ivanhoe has been "confirmed" as an Iberian lineage? No ancient U106 has been tested and found in Iberia that I know of and I and a few others maintain a list of ancient DNA positive for U106+. What evidence is there that "confirms" Ivanhoe as coming from Iberia? I am not an expert on Ivanhoe (I'm more of an expert on my own subgroup DF98), but I know a few who are at the U106 yahoo group... it generally is a group who has several connections to the Isles, but also has strong connection to Eastern Europe going from memory. What down stream SNPs of U106 (in the Ivanhoe group) are you talking about? Could you list those?

    Just confused to the fact that "is is confirmed that the origin is Iberia." I doubt any group of U106 has it's origin in Iberia - based on the modern and ancient DNA that we have at the moment... did you read or see it somewhere else?

    Cheers!
    Thank you for responding.

    I found it from this website: https://jewishdna.net/AB-084.html

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    Seems to reference 2014 based STR age estimates and doesn't really deal with the current distribution of BigY results from the various haplogroup levels and current age estimates. Individuals will take what they want to "confirm" their theories. Lets see what the hg38 based data set analysis shows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    Thank you for responding.

    I found it from this website: https://jewishdna.net/AB-084.html
    No problem Learning! I didn't want to come across as an a**hole lol... but I was wondering what evidence there was that supported that hypothesis etc... as this is all a work-in-progress and we get new info every year (especially with Big-Y and now aDNA samples). Really STRs are old news as far as very old matches - SNPs found through Big Y or another NGS test are the best thing for haplogroup branching from what I understand. STRs are still very useful in projects with matches all related in the last 1000 and probably especially 500 year range (looking for surname matches and hopefully some branching before the common surname was taken on, but also within a genealogical time frame etc!).

    One thing you can do is go to the U106 DNA project at FTDNA run by Charles Moore and crew - and take a look at the clade/group you would have in mind - in this case from the link you provided S3251->FGC8579->FGC8578 - take a look at that group and their MDKA and then look at the group just above - Z159 - and then the group above that. Look at their MDKAs. That is about the best you can do other than looking at ancient and medieval DNA. Actually I think now that ancient DNA (aDNA) is better for this as it provides samples in a very early and proven burial and DNA context. Much better than looking at purely modern samples (how many migrations and back-migrations are we looking at in even a small number of samples?), but modern samples plus aDNA are useful! We are looking for patterns! I know Dr. Iain McDonald is ;-)!. Google U106 DNA project for the FTDNA project and go to results - if you are a member of FTDNA log in to your account and you will be able to see the users that only want their matches to see their kits etc... I don't screen shot anything that isn't viewable in public because I want to respect users who want to keep their info limited to their matches etc.

    I maintain a growing list of aDNA U106+ samples - I'll link the list at the end here - as for the aDNA samples we have that are L48 (several) and L47 (a few) we have the following: c. 380 +/-27 AD, Poprad-Matejovce, Slovakia, DA119, U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z381/S263 > Z301/S499 > L48 > L47/S170 > Z160 > S3251 > S6915* (negative for any current downstream groups under S6915) who matches up to S3251 with the people in your link: This was most likely a Germanic Chieftain buried in a rich chamber grave at Poprad, Slovakia and very Northern in his autosomal.

    Szolad Longobard sample SZ 2: 550-570s AD, Szolad, Hungary, SZ 2, U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263> Z301/S499> L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2>Z7>Z8>(ZZ58?) is Z9 under L48 etc. Northern in his autosomal.

    Szolad Longobard sample SZ 11: c. 550-570s AD, Szolad, Hungary, SZ 11, U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489> hg38:20038474-A-C - also Z9 under L48. Very Northern etc.

    All the U106+ men from the Alamanni burial site at Niederstotzingen were also Z9 under L48 (this is turning out the be quite the "Germanic Migration" lineage!):
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 1, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 3a, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 6, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 9, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 12b, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 12c, U106/S21> Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319
    (Graves 1, 3a, 6, 9, and 12b listed to same SNP - FGC23143 - based on their positive kinship status via the paper’s results - 12c is related in the paternal line to the SNP Z319).

    A sample from the pagan early settlers of Iceland paper was also in this group up to a certain point and matches up with the Poprad Chieftain buried in the chamber grave... That would be sample STT-A2: c. 975-1015 AD, Straumur, Hafnarfjörður, Iceland, STT-A2, R-M269 > U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z381/S263 > Z301/S499 > L48 > L47/S170 > Z159 > S6915 (per Ray Wing and YFull facebook page!). He matches Poprad Chieftain to S6915 - since the Chieftain is positive for S3251 and also S6915 - then it's safe to assume that STT-A2 is also positive for S3251 since he is also positive for downstream SNP S6915.

    Past S6915 I wouldn't know what the story is for that particular branch in your link as you would have to look at the breakdown of those SNP groups and below under S3251 etc...

    As you can see this is quite the Germanic lineage - at least based on current aDNA data... at early on in the AD time period. You would have to find older ancient DNA samples of the same lineage in Iberia before you could say that it originated from Iberia, unless the hypothesis was that it came from the North, settled there, and then came from there to Britain. I think that is why we need SO MANY more aDNA samples from all over... to see which SNP groups were and were not in the burial record to the best of our ability... ;-). Here is my google doc list - take a look down past the summary as I have all the archeological and other data I could find on each burial: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    Also what Cofcgene said! He's right! As SNPs trees are built we see changes and perhaps new branches and movements (combing modern with aDNA samples and patterns etc).

    Cheers,
    Charlie

    Edit: I need to change or get rid of the SNPs or SNP between U106 and the main branches like Z18, L48, U198, Z156 etc... as I think it's only the case that with RISE 98 from Sweden that he is positive for an SNP and negative for a major one below U106, but above all the major groups listed - in other words all the other samples who are positive for Z18, L48, U198, Z156 are all positive for those SNPs between U106 and said major groups and I don't plan on listing those in the SNP chain... only for RISE 98 or if we get another sample like him... is that important etc!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 10-09-2018 at 03:12 AM.
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Captain Johann Martin Weber, 1st Pennsylvania (Long) Rifles/Rangers of the Frontier, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Rhineland, Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers of Eboracum.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cofgene View Post
    Seems to reference 2014 based STR age estimates and doesn't really deal with the current distribution of BigY results from the various haplogroup levels and current age estimates. Individuals will take what they want to "confirm" their theories. Lets see what the hg38 based data set analysis shows.
    Personally I think I should stop attempting to learn this science. It is too ambiguous or perhaps it is just that I do not have mental capacity to grasp it? I find that it is difficult for a layman to understand. Is it the case that there is a lot of false information on the internet about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    No problem Learning! I didn't want to come across as an a**hole lol... but I was wondering what evidence there was that supported that hypothesis etc... as this is all a work-in-progress and we get new info every year (especially with Big-Y and now aDNA samples). Really STRs are old news as far as very old matches - SNPs found through Big Y or another NGS test are the best thing for haplogroup branching from what I understand. STRs are still very useful in projects with matches all related in the last 1000 and probably especially 500 year range (looking for surname matches and hopefully some branching before the common surname was taken on, but also within a genealogical time frame etc!).

    One thing you can do is go to the U106 DNA project at FTDNA run by Charles Moore and crew - and take a look at the clade/group you would have in mind - in this case from the link you provided S3251->FGC8579->FGC8578 - take a look at that group and their MDKA and then look at the group just above - Z159 - and then the group above that. Look at their MDKAs. That is about the best you can do other than looking at ancient and medieval DNA. Actually I think now that ancient DNA (aDNA) is better for this as it provides samples in a very early and proven burial and DNA context. Much better than looking at purely modern samples (how many migrations and back-migrations are we looking at in even a small number of samples?), but modern samples plus aDNA are useful! We are looking for patterns! I know Dr. Iain McDonald is ;-)!. Google U106 DNA project for the FTDNA project and go to results - if you are a member of FTDNA log in to your account and you will be able to see the users that only want their matches to see their kits etc... I don't screen shot anything that isn't viewable in public because I want to respect users who want to keep their info limited to their matches etc.

    I maintain a growing list of aDNA U106+ samples - I'll link the list at the end here - as for the aDNA samples we have that are L48 (several) and L47 (a few) we have the following: c. 380 +/-27 AD, Poprad-Matejovce, Slovakia, DA119, U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z381/S263 > Z301/S499 > L48 > L47/S170 > Z160 > S3251 > S6915* (negative for any current downstream groups under S6915) who matches up to S3251 with the people in your link: This was most likely a Germanic Chieftain buried in a rich chamber grave at Poprad, Slovakia and very Northern in his autosomal.

    Szolad Longobard sample SZ 2: 550-570s AD, Szolad, Hungary, SZ 2, U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263> Z301/S499> L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2>Z7>Z8>(ZZ58?) is Z9 under L48 etc. Northern in his autosomal.

    Szolad Longobard sample SZ 11: c. 550-570s AD, Szolad, Hungary, SZ 11, U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489> hg38:20038474-A-C - also Z9 under L48. Very Northern etc.

    All the U106+ men from the Alamanni burial site at Niederstotzingen were also Z9 under L48 (this is turning out the be quite the "Germanic Migration" lineage!):
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 1, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 3a, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 6, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 9, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 12b, U106/S21>Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319> S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143
    c. 580-630s AD, Niederstotzingen, Baden-Württemberg, Grave 12c, U106/S21> Z2265> Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319
    (Graves 1, 3a, 6, 9, and 12b listed to same SNP - FGC23143 - based on their positive kinship status via the paper’s results - 12c is related in the paternal line to the SNP Z319).

    A sample from the pagan early settlers of Iceland paper was also in this group up to a certain point and matches up with the Poprad Chieftain buried in the chamber grave... That would be sample STT-A2: c. 975-1015 AD, Straumur, Hafnarfjörður, Iceland, STT-A2, R-M269 > U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z381/S263 > Z301/S499 > L48 > L47/S170 > Z159 > S6915 (per Ray Wing and YFull facebook page!). He matches Poprad Chieftain to S6915 - since the Chieftain is positive for S3251 and also S6915 - then it's safe to assume that STT-A2 is also positive for S3251 since he is also positive for downstream SNP S6915.

    Past S6915 I wouldn't know what the story is for that particular branch in your link as you would have to look at the breakdown of those SNP groups and below under S3251 etc...

    As you can see this is quite the Germanic lineage - at least based on current aDNA data... at early on in the AD time period. You would have to find older ancient DNA samples of the same lineage in Iberia before you could say that it originated from Iberia, unless the hypothesis was that it came from the North, settled there, and then came from there to Britain. I think that is why we need SO MANY more aDNA samples from all over... to see which SNP groups were and were not in the burial record to the best of our ability... ;-). Here is my google doc list - take a look down past the summary as I have all the archeological and other data I could find on each burial: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    Also what Cofcgene said! He's right! As SNPs trees are built we see changes and perhaps new branches and movements (combing modern with aDNA samples and patterns etc).

    Cheers,
    Charlie

    Edit: I need to change or get rid of the SNPs or SNP between U106 and the main branches like Z18, L48, U198, Z156 etc... as I think it's only the case that with RISE 98 from Sweden that he is positive for an SNP and negative for a major one below U106, but above all the major groups listed - in other words all the other samples who are positive for Z18, L48, U198, Z156 are all positive for those SNPs between U106 and said major groups and I don't plan on listing those in the SNP chain... only for RISE 98 or if we get another sample like him... is that important etc!
    I must thank you for your very thorough and detailed response. I truly appreciate this.

    Unfortunately I cannot respond to you with any level of similar sophistication or understanding. My knowledge about population genetics is very limited, hence my name.

    I suppose what I am trying to discover is whether or not there is Jewish admixture among my people the Scots. It all started when I discovered a book, 'When Scotland Was Jewish'. Until now I have not found any compelling answers, it all remains very ambiguous.

    But what I do not understand about the Ivanhoe Cluster is whether or not it is common in Scotland and the British Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learning_Genetics View Post
    Personally I think I should stop attempting to learn this science. It is too ambiguous or perhaps it is just that I do not have mental capacity to grasp it? I find that it is difficult for a layman to understand. Is it the case that there is a lot of false information on the internet about this?



    I must thank you for your very thorough and detailed response. I truly appreciate this.

    Unfortunately I cannot respond to you with any level of similar sophistication or understanding. My knowledge about population genetics is very limited, hence my name.

    I suppose what I am trying to discover is whether or not there is Jewish admixture among my people the Scots. It all started when I discovered a book, 'When Scotland Was Jewish'. Until now I have not found any compelling answers, it all remains very ambiguous.

    But what I do not understand about the Ivanhoe Cluster is whether or not it is common in Scotland and the British Isles.
    I would go ahead a join the U106 yahoo forum (run by Charles Moore and crew) and ask questions there as I know more than one person who is on there is in the Ivanhoe cluster. Are you also in that cluster/part of U106? I'm sure people there can fill you in any questions you have on Ivanhoe. If you are curious about whether it is common in the Isles - then go google the U106 DNA project at FTDNA and check the SNP section for Ivanhoe (those SNPs you provided in the other link - if you make the page size large like 5000 and use the search function for the SNP you are sure to find it)... find those groups that are positive for that SNP and look at their MDKA (most distant known ancestors). Other than ancient/medieval DNA - that is your other best bet- to search all kits that are positive for that SNP and to look at their MDKA. That will give you an idea where it is common. Also keep in mind that we have a Isles testing bias and that is probably making some SNP groups seem more common then they really are (the more tests in a given region = more positive SNP results)... we really need more continental European testers!! Try to keep that in mind!

    Cheers,
    Charlie
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Captain Johann Martin Weber, 1st Pennsylvania (Long) Rifles/Rangers of the Frontier, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Rhineland, Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers of Eboracum.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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