Ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs

[AlexRus]

Let's discuss the ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs. How the East Slavic peoples were formed. What political, historical factors contributed to the generalization of the Eastern Slavs and the formation of the three Eastern Slavic peoples - Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. I also wonder if the Poles belong to Eastern Europe?

[AlexRus]

Tell this to a Belarusian, he or she will spit in you face. Don't listen to Lusakeshentko swearing on Russian brotherhood to Russians because he wants cheap cruide oil and natural gas. Do you want me to show a video in the centre of Minsk chanting "кто не скачет, то Москаль"?

I am telling this as a someone, who is close to Russians. I can imagine the feelings of my countrymen living further west.

I have a lot of experience working with Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalists. The arguments of the Ukrainian nationalists are the same: Russians - Moksha. Ukrainians and Belarusians are true Slavs. But genetic and linguistic studies do not confirm the seriousness of these arguments. Therefore, I continue to wonder why Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians cannot consider themselves to be a divided people? What is wrong with nationalist Belarusians seeing this? In what direction do the Belarusians want to go with whom they want to unite? Indeed, in the new world, there are processes of integration and globalization. Belarusians will not be able to remain an imperceptible people for a long time. It will be necessary to choose, as Ukrainians do today.

[AlexRus]

You are a slav by culture, language and socio-political identity and primarly not be genes. Nobody is a slav just because of genes. So there is no way in measuring purer slaveness, what is anyways a pointless idea. We can just conclude who genetically has more Proto-Slavic ancestry. Central Russians are indeed predominately genetic descendants of East Slavs but you have an Finno-Ugrian substrate (around 20%) and it is absurd to deny it. Merya in Central Russia were not like modern day Finns or Komi and themselves very similar to Balto-Slavs.

Also try to prove that Ukrainians have turkic ancestry. That is ultra-nationalist propaganda just like that of Ukrainian nationalists who claim that Russians are turco-mongolic... what is both ridicilious

Slavic-is primarily a language. Genetically, the first Slavs appeared in the South of Belarus, North-East of Ukraine and West of Russia. Belarusians have a strong Baltic substrate. Ukrainians have a very strong Balkan superstrate. Have Russians West and Western parts of Central Russia(West of Moscow) and South-West substrate there is no at all. So these Russians are the true Slavs. I am not proud of it, I say archaeological and historical fact.

Russians Vladimir and Rostov not similar on Merya. Slavs mixed up with Meria in the East of the Kostroma region - Unzha.. So look for a bride from the city of Unzha. From the Unzha was taken of the sample "Russian Kostroma.".

Vladimir region is "Opol'e". Here was the most massive migration of Slavs from the territory of Eastern Ukraine in the 10-14 century. Since there is fertile land. The substrate is here too, but it is very small. Almost the same as Native American substrate for white Americans.

Have you ever seen a Gagauz? Gagauz Turks are descendants of Pechenegs, but genetically in Europe. That kind of admixture is in the Ukrainians. However, many Ukrainians do not pass in Russia as Europeans - turanidny or very Balkan appearance makes them unlike Slavs. It is not proved that autosomes are 100% talking about the origin, anthropology is very important.

[Volat]

I have a lot of experience working with Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalists. The arguments of the Ukrainian nationalists are the same: Russians - Moksha. Ukrainians and Belarusians are true Slavs. But genetic and linguistic studies do not confirm the seriousness of these arguments. Therefore, I continue to wonder why Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians cannot consider themselves to be a divided people? What is wrong with nationalist Belarusians seeing this? In what direction do the Belarusians want to go with whom they want to unite? Indeed, in the new world, there are processes of integration and globalization. Belarusians will not be able to remain an imperceptible people for a long time. It will be necessary to choose, as Ukrainians do today.

I am not a nationalist. Russians of Smolensk are close to us. I am telling about the feelings of our young girls and guys. Even older generation such as president Lukashenko who was behind the formation of 'союзного государства' stated "Русский мир" is a propagandistic silliness" : https://inosmi.ru/sngbaltia/20150804/229437278.html

[AlexRus]

I am not a nationalist. Russians of Smolensk are close to us. I am telling about the feelings of our young girls and guys. Even older generation such as president Lukashenko who was behind the formation of 'союзного государства' stated "Русский мир" is a propagandistic silliness" : https://inosmi.ru/sngbaltia/20150804/229437278.html

What you write is backward nationalism.

Russian Smolensk is close to the rest of the Russian people in mentality, language, culture and self-consciousness. This is important. The proximity to the Belarusians is ancient from the common Slavic ancestors of the Radimiches. If you talk about politics, that all Russians think the Belarusians are brothers and one people. Genetics and minimal differences are not the main thing. Belarus is similar to one of Russia's smaller regions in terms of DNA diversity, separated from the rest of the Russian people by the will of historical events and politics.

[AlexRus]

Even older generation such as president Lukashenko who was behind the formation of 'союзного государства' stated "Русский мир" is a propagandistic silliness" : https://inosmi.ru/sngbaltia/20150804/229437278.html

Who is Lukashenka for me, why do you give him to me as an example? I don't care what he says. My heroes are not Putin, Lukashenka or Poroshenko, but Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Svyatoslav, Minin and Pozharsky.

[Tomenable]

Let's discuss the ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs. How the East Slavic peoples were formed. What political, historical factors contributed to the generalization of the Eastern Slavs and the formation of the three Eastern Slavic peoples - Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. I also wonder if the Poles belong to Eastern Europe?

Based on MDLP K16 Spreadsheet, it seems that West Ukrainians cluster with West Slavs, as well as 3 out of 4 Polish regions:



Unfortunately there are no regional labels in the spreadsheet (they have been added to Oracle, but not yet to the spreadsheet).

Only 1 out of 4 Polish references clusters with East Slavs.

[Tomenable]

Something interesting:

Based on G25, Ukrainians are closer to Poles than they are to Russians and Belarusians, what explanations do you suggest guys?:



Distances of West Slavs to other Slavic groups:







=====

For comparison distances of Macedonians:
("where South Slavs end" is visible here)



=====

And here my distances to G25 populations:

Colours added for:

Red = Slavic-speaking
Blue = Baltic-speaking*
Yellow = Germanic-speaking
Violet = Finno-Ugric-speaking
Green = British/Irish/Breton
Pink = Romance-speaking

*Lithuanian_PA is Vilnius Region in the south.



^^^
Russian Pinega is 66th or 74th respectively.

[Coldmountains]

Something interesting:

Based on G25, Ukrainians are closer to Poles than they are to Russians and Belarusians, what explanations do you suggest guys?:



Distances of West Slavs to other Slavic groups:







=====

For comparison distances of Macedonians:
("where South Slavs end" is visible here)



=====

And here my distances to G25 populations:

Colours added for:

Red = Slavic-speaking
Blue = Baltic-speaking*
Yellow = Germanic-speaking
Violet = Finno-Ugric-speaking
Green = British/Irish/Breton
Pink = Romance-speaking

*Lithuanian_PA is Vilnius Region in the south.



^^^
Russian Pinega is 66th or 74th respectively.

well Ukrainians are only a tiny bit closer to Poles here than to Southwest Russians. Also the Ukrainian average is including Ukrainians from different regions (West, Central, East). West Ukrainians would be definetly closer to Poles but East Ukrainians would be closer to Russians from Oryol or Kursk. My Russian wife is closer to some East Ukrainians than to many other Russians for example. Central Ukrainians are probably inbetween but a bit closer to Poles.

[artemv]

well Ukrainians are only a tiny bit closer to Poles here than to Southwest Russians. Also the Ukrainian average is including Ukrainians from different regions (West, Central, East). West Ukrainians would be definetly closer to Poles but East Ukrainians would be closer to Russians from Oryol or Kursk. My Russian wife is closer to some East Ukrainians than to many other Russians for example. Central Ukrainians are probably inbetween but a bit closer to Poles.

There was really a lot of mixture between Russians and Ukrainians in the 20th century. I guess before population exchange between Poland and Ukraine (happened soon after WW2) there was also a serious gene flow between Ukrainians and Polish people.
East and West Slavs are genetically very close to each other (I'm sure, there is no reason to make any political conclusions out of that fact). As far as I understand, numbers you can see mostly depend on random - on a group of persons selected to represent their region and do not say much about relations between groups in general.
Looking at the numbers I'm only surprized that Sorbs are so close to the rest of the Slavs and got very little (if any) German admixture.

P.S. No surprize that Russians from Kostroma/Pinega are genetically distant from other Slavs. North Russians have significal admixture from pre-Slavic Finno-Ugrian population of that region.