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Thread: Ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    I'm sure that refers to Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi, which is on the opposite side of the country, as opposed to the town in Russia.
    No I think it refers to ethnic Ukrainians from Belgorod Oblast in Russia - area which has been strongly ethnically Ukrainian:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 09:53 PM.

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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yes I agree. Those areas in the south-east were known as "Wild Fields" (Dzikie Pola) and it was mostly steppe with various forts and outposts.
    In Russian it is spelled "Дикое поле". I do not know if you understand cyrillic writings, but here Russian words sound pretty similar to Polish ones. Territory of today's Steppe Ukraine was just the westernmost part of the "Wild Field", the "Wild field" refered to all the Great Steppe from modern Odessa to Modern East Kazakhstan.
    I do not know what Polish learn at school about this period of time. I myself learned in a Russian school. After our history lessons everything looked like there were Mongol Empire, but after it broke apart the focus moves to wars against Poland and Sweden. But that's wrong. Generally, most of both Early Slav and after that East Slav's history before the very end of 18th century was about warfare between sedentary Slavs and steppe nomads from the Wild Field. Final victory over the Steppe and Russian/Ukrainian settlement in the Western part of the Steppe is the most important demographical event in the Eastern Slav history. Even more important than colonization of Siberia.
    The tipping point in that war was not the 1380 and victory on the Kulikov field. Indeed, lands, that were settled by Slavs in the 15th century were abandoned at the beginning of the 16th century.
    End of the 16th century was a tipping point. Russian army took Kazan' and after that Astrakhan'. At the very end of 16th century three cities were found: Samara, Saratov and Tzaritzin (now Volgograd). Sinse that moment no new Horde could migrate to the Western Steppe from its Eastern part. Crimeans was the last group of Steppe nomads to the West from Volga, but at that time they could not cross the Volga river and communicate freely with the Eastern Nomads and became heavily dependent on the Ottomans. In 17th and 18th centuries we can see the same process: both in Russia and in Poland. Slavs settleled further and further to the South, their numbers grew rapidly as they step by step took the fertile lands of what was once "the Wild Field".
    After 1771 the Crimeans were no longer a threat to the Slav settlers in the former Wild field, and after 1791 peace with Ottomans Crimea finally became part of Russia. As you can see, partitions of Poland happened right after Crimean and Ottoman defeats. Poland, that was still organized as a Medieval state was weak by itself, and Ottoman defeats left Poland with no possible ally, so Russia, Prussia and Austria could divide Poland even without a war.
    Last edited by artemv; 01-01-2020 at 11:01 PM. Reason: typo

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  5. #113
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    ^^^
    All of Poland was de facto Russia's protectorate after the Great Northern War, and "keeping Poland Medieval" (and weak) was in Russia's best interest. The partitions happened because Poland started reforming & modernizing itself, and resisting Russian control - this is why Prussia and Austria were needed to divide the country, as Russia was not strong enough to absorb all of it. If Poles were not so rebellious, all of Poland would be controlled by Russia - there would be no need to ask Prussia and Austria for help.

    And probably also the partitions would not happen (but de facto Poland would be under Russian control, at least for some time).

    But as I wrote before, until 1795 Russians annexed mostly areas with majority non-Polish populations (in terms of ethnicity).

    =====

    This is a nice map of Russian expansion in 1340-1897:

    http://starenowemapy.pl/2018/01/20/r...ego-1340-1897/

    ^^^
    Kursk was taken already in the 1400s, Kharkiv in 1549.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    I do not know if you understand cyrillic writings
    Unfortunately no, I was born in the 1990s so no cyrillic at school. But maybe I'll learn it.

    Different alphabet is the main difficulty, other than that Russian language is similar to Polish.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 10:49 PM.

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  7. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No I think it refers to ethnic Ukrainians from Belgorod Oblast in Russia - area which has been strongly ethnically Ukrainian
    I've been in Belgorod. People there speak Russian, but the way they pronounse some sounds still strongly resembles Ukrainian language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But it would be interesting to have also some ca. 1600 estimates for East Ukraine, including areas such as this region:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloboda_Ukraine



    ^^^
    Ukrainian_Belgorod academic samples probably represent the average genetic profile of Sloboda Ukraine in general?
    Just wanted to say that Belgorod itself was found at 1596. As a fort in the Wild Field.
    Before 1600 there was very little Slav population here. And those people who settled the area came both from Russia and from Ukraine. Russian authorities in Moscow at the time were really eager to get some loyal Orthodox population there. In 1646 Belgorod was still a small fort that was moved to another location, that was considered to be easier to defend.

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  9. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    All of Poland was de facto Russia's protectorate after the Great Northern War, and "keeping Poland Medieval" (and weak) was in Russia's best interest. The partitions happened because Poland started reforming & modernizing itself, and resisting Russian control - this is why Prussia and Austria were needed to divide the country, as Russia was not strong enough to absorb all of it. If Poles were not so rebellious, all of Poland would be controlled by Russia - there would be no need to ask Prussia and Austria for help.

    And probably also the partitions would not happen (but de facto Poland would be under Russian control, at least for some time).
    That's a relatively short peroid of time. Great Northern War ended in 1721, just about 50 years before the First Partition.
    I anyway have no doubt about connection between partitions of Poland and Russian victories against Ottomans and Crimeans, the last Western group of Steppe nomads. No threat from Steppe and Ottomans meant Empire could deal with other issues, like integrating into Empire such a populated territory. And this also meant, that in case if Polish try to resist, they would have no allies, as Ottomans were just recently defeated and Germans (Prussians and Austrians) got their part of Poland. Trying to integrate all the Poland into Russian Empire could have easily ended in a defeat, as both Prussia and Austria would surely support any Polish resistance or rebellion.
    Yes, the Empire had no interest in reforms in Poland, but those reforms could only change something in the long run. In the short run, it was much more important to deal with possible Polish allies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But as I wrote before, until 1795 Russians annexed mostly areas with majority non-Polish populations (in terms of ethnicity).
    Yes, I agree here. Why do you point this out? Did I say somewhere those territories had Polish majority in terms of ethnicity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is a nice map of Russian expansion in 1340-1897:

    http://starenowemapy.pl/2018/01/20/r...ego-1340-1897/
    Unfortunately this map doesn't distinguish between several very different cases:
    - integration into Moscovia different Slavic feudal territories. In this cases regions with population that spoke the same language were integrated. And not just the same language, the territories had the same political structure;
    - annexation of Kazan' and Astrakhan', regions with steppe population, mostly Muslem at the time;
    - annexation and settlement of territories that had no sedentary population. You can see all the territory from Kharkov to Kazan' has the same colour, but their history is quite different. Populating the Wild Steppe territories was a very long process, but it made Russia a great Power;
    - annexation of Polish lands. With their Jewish population, Polish minority and Orthodox/Uniate majority, that was quite close to Russians in terms of both language and religion, but was already used to quite different political system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Kursk was taken already in the 1400s, Kharkiv in 1549.
    That is formal side of history.
    If you read at least wikipedia you will see a bit different story.
    Kursk became part of Russia at 1508 (was usually called Moscowy at a time), but the state then was not able to defend the territory. Kursk was soon depopulated as Moscow could not protect it against Crimean raids, the territory had little to no Slavic population.
    In 1586 Kursk was re-founded at a different place(!!). That was part of large-scale Slavic settlement in the Wild Steppe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    Unfortunately no, I was born in the 1990s so no cyrillic at school. But maybe I'll learn it.

    Different alphabet is the main difficulty, other than that Russian language is similar to Polish.
    I've seen you posted here some maps with texts in Ukrainian, so I thought you probably read the cyrillic letters.

    Several times tried a funny game "try understand Polish people without switching to English". Generally, I need some some time to get used to way Polish pronouse sounds, but then I start recognizing the words.
    Last edited by artemv; 01-02-2020 at 09:51 AM. Reason: typo

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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Why did it happen that Polish and Ukrainians mixed in Austrian territories more than in Russian Empire?
    This area (East Galicia) was part of Poland for over 400 years, a longer time than Volhynia and other territories:

    Of course period of Austrian rule is not included in this time:



    ^^^
    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34wkWnMSI
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-02-2020 at 01:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This area (East Galicia) was part of Poland for over 400 years, a longer time than Volhynia and other territories:

    Of course period of Austrian rule is not included in this time:


    ^^^
    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34wkWnMSI
    I see. Those who made this map consider being part of Grand Duchy of Lithuania doesn't count, only being part of Poland proper.

    As for me arguement that East Galicia is a region where both ethnic Polish and ethnic Ukrainians were peasants is much more important. Polish nobility and townspeople I guess could move to any part of Great Duchy of Lithuania, even before both countries unified formally. At least, even before the Union of Lublin two countries were close allies. We know that ashkenazy Jews have settled almost in every region of both Kingdom of Poland and Great Duchy of Lithuania, likely Christian Slavic townspeople could move and moved just as easily.

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    Sample UKR-1283 from Sumy Oblast (North-Eastern Ukraine!) plots very close to my father and also to Austrian:Austria5 in Global25:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....blast-genetics

    ^Super interesting, so people from Sumy Oblast are very western-shifted compared to what their geographical location would suggest?

  16. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Just to mention that the Curzon Line is pretty much identical to Russian border between 1795 and Napoleon's times.
    Except for the Lviv region, which had never been under the rule of Moscow (except for transient wartime fluctuations) until the Soviet Union seized it at the beginning of World War II under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

    Or, more correctly: You are referring to the original Curzon Line (labeled "B" on this map) rather than the later one attributed to Namier.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 01-13-2020 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sample UKR-1283 from Sumy Oblast (North-Eastern Ukraine!) plots very close to my father and also to Austrian:Austria5 in Global25:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....blast-genetics

    ^Super interesting, so people from Sumy Oblast are very western-shifted compared to what their geographical location would suggest?
    Sumy is part of the "Slobidska Ukrajina" and did not become heavily settled until the 17th century. A big portion of the migrants came there from West of the Dnipro and even from further west. This could be part of the reason.

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