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Thread: Ethnic history of the Eastern Slavs

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well Ukrainians are closer to anyone in North and Central Europe than to Romanians or Moldavians. They are genetically not close at all
    istance to: Ukrainian
    0.01028002 Polish
    0.01142048 Russian_Orel
    0.01174077 Russian_Voronez
    0.01623328 Russian_Kursk
    0.01680295 Cossack_Ukrainian
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    0.02574369 Russian_Tver
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    0.03543231 Lithuanian_RA
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    0.03858569 Estonian
    0.03922489 Hungarian
    0.03933290 German_East
    0.04007214 Slovenian
    0.04043956 Cossack_Kuban
    0.04104192 Croatian
    0.04363491 Lithuanian_SZ
    0.04545196 Russian_Kostroma
    0.04584871 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.04696192 Latvian
    0.04759996 Mordovian
    0.05038683 Bosnian
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    0.05129929 Austrian
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    0.07446648 French_Brittany
    0.07532334 French_Nord
    0.07542171 Belgian
    0.07604668 Russian_Pinega
    0.07812241 Macedonian
    0.07932598 Swiss_German
    0.08210549 Bulgarian
    0.08342890 French_Paris
    0.08573911 Moldavian
    Just FYI, all Romanian samples on G25 come from 2 Western counties beyond the Carpathians (those that start with "G" - Gorj, "A" - Alba). Moldovans are even more biased, since all 10 samples are taken from one district, Stefan Voda, on the Southeastern edge of the country.
    Known ancestry: Romanian from Moldavia region (1/2 Romanian Iasi county + 1/4 Romanian Galati county + 1/4 Romanian Chernivtsi oblast Ukraine)
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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Before that both Poland and Ukraine were parts of Russian Empire for about 100 years.
    This is not quite accurate, as South-Western Ukraine (Lviv, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Zakarpattia) was never part of the Russian Empire.

    Most of it was in the Austrian Empire - East Galicia. Bukovina and Carpathian Ruthenia were also not Russian:



    And Poland was of course divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria with only ca. 1/2 of ethnic Polish population living under Russia. Most of the mixing and assimilation between Poles and Ukrainians was likely taking place in the Austrian Empire, as ethnic groups were more intermixed there than in Russian areas further north.

    This is a fragment of my map of the distribution of ethnic Poles in early 1900s, showing the Polish-Ukrainian ethnic borderland. In Russian-controlled areas, Poles were very few in numbers (under 20% in every county) to the east of the Bug River. The borderland was located in counties just west of the Bug River:

    In East Galicia, the area with mixed ethnic groups was much larger, there was a "Polish island" as far east as Ternopil:



    That said, Polish-organized colonization of Ukraine from the 1300s to the 1700s probably played a more important role.

    Much of Galicia, Volhynia and Podolia became Polish already in the 1340s and King Casimir III organized colonization / "Landesausbau" of that area.

    Later, when Poland inherited Central Ukraine from Lithuania in 1569, the area was very sparsely populated (Mongol & Tatar raids contributed to that).

    Under Polish administration people were moving to that sparsely populated Central Ukraine from areas further west. Many of them were ethnic Ruthenians, but also Polish peasants many of whom became Ruthenized and converted to Orthodoxy during the period of Cossack Rebellions and subsequent Polish-Muscovite Wars.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 06:24 PM.

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  5. #103
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    Are there any estimates for population size of Eastern Ukraine around years 1570-1600 or so?

    These are estimates for the Polish-controlled parts of Ukraine based on year 1580 tax censuses:

    Population density ranged from approximately just over 2 per km2 in Kiev Voivodeship to just over 14 per km2 in Ruthenian (Lviv) Voivodeship:

    Year 1580 population size - most recent estimate (older lower estimate):

    Chelm Voivodeship - 100101 inhabitants (66617) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82m_Land
    Belz Voivodeship - 92314 inhabitants (56117) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belz_Voivodeship
    Ruthenian Voivodeship - 642734 inhabitants (449914) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_Voivodeship
    Volhynian Voivodeship - 441000 inhabitants (293780) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhyn...%E2%80%931795)
    Podolian Voivodeship - 147000 inhabitants (97736) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podolian_Voivodeship
    Bratslav Voivodeship - 400000 inhabitants (311340) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brac%C5%82aw_Voivodeship
    Kiev Voivodeship - 450000 inhabitants (234040) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Voivodeship

    Map of population density for each region (based on higher estimates):



    ^^^
    In late 1500s and 1600s there was a constant flow of migrants from densely populated western regions to sparsely populated Kiev Voivodeship.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 07:30 PM.

  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is not quite accurate, as South-Western Ukraine (Lviv, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivtsi, Zakarpattia) was never part of the Russian Empire.

    Most of it was in the Austrian Empire - East Galicia. Bukovina and Carpathian Ruthenia were also not Russian:
    Thank you, this is correct - few parts of modern Ukraine were never part of Russian Empire.
    Just didn't want to go too much into details while explaining some basics to a person from the West, who knows not so much about the region.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This map of Ukrainian regions is very strange.
    I've never heard that North-Eastern Ukraine, around Chernigov was called Zaporozha. Just look where Zaporizhia city is located.
    Term Edisan was only used in Osman/Crimean times, before Russian Empire defeated the Crimeans.
    Term Taurida during Russian Empire times was only used as a synonim to Crimea.
    Term Meotida is a very ancient one, it comes from times of Greek colonization, even before Slavs. It was not used in 19th century, at least was not commonly used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And Poland was of course divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria with only ca. 1/2 of ethnic Polish population living under Russia.
    Yes, Poland was divided at the end of 18th century, between Russia, Prussia and Austria. But after Napoleon's defeat the borders were changed and Russia got more territories. Only in 19th century Russian Empire got territories that made historican Polish heartland, including Warsaw itselt.
    When you state about 1/2 of ethnic Polish population you mean pre-Napoleon borders, or post Napoleon borders?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Most of the mixing and assimilation between Poles and Ukrainians was likely taking place in the Austrian Empire, as ethnic groups were more intermixed there than in Russian areas further north.
    I've never heart about that. Why did it happen that Polish and Ukrainians mixed in Austrian territories more than in Russian Empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    That said, Polish-organized colonization of Ukraine from the 1300s to the 1700s probably played a more important role.

    Much of Galicia, Volhynia and Podolia became Polish already in the 1340s and King Casimir III organized colonization / "Landesausbau" of that area.

    Later, when Poland inherited Central Ukraine from Lithuania in 1569, the area was very sparsely populated (Mongol & Tatar raids contributed to that).

    Under Polish administration people were moving to that sparsely populated Central Ukraine from areas further west. Many of them were ethnic Ruthenians, but also Polish peasants many of whom became Ruthenized and converted to Orthodoxy during the period of Cossack Rebellions and subsequent Polish-Muscovite Wars.
    Very interesting story. I've heard that the population of what is now Central Ukraine was very low at 16th century (as well as neighbouring regions of Russia, like Kursk, Bryansk e.t.c.). But I've never heard about Polish colonization of the territory. Always thougt that Polish just made a small group of noble landowners or city dwellers, but peasantry was Orthodox (later also Uniates).

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  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    But after Napoleon's defeat the borders were changed and Russia got more territories.
    Yes, but even after that change, Russian-controlled territories contained only ca. 1/2 of the ethnic Polish population.

    Before 1815 Russian Partition did not contain any parts of present-day Poland except for the Białowieża Forest:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5...%C5%BCa_Forest

    Pretty much the Curzon Line = 1795 western border of Russia (except for Galicia) = modern border of Poland:



    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    When you state about 1/2 of ethnic Polish population you mean pre-Napoleon borders, or post Napoleon borders?
    Post-Napoleon borders. Before Napoleon the great majority of ethnic Polish population was under Prussia and Austria.

    Just to mention that the Curzon Line is pretty much identical to Russian border between 1795 and Napoleon's times.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    But I've never heard about Polish colonization of the territory.
    Polish-sponsored colonization, but of course not all of the settlers were ethnic Poles.

    Many were surely Ruthenians from further west, from what is today Western Ukraine.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 08:05 PM.

  9. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Are there any estimates for population size of Eastern Ukraine around years 1570-1600 or so?

    These are estimates for the Polish-controlled parts of Ukraine based on year 1580 tax censuses:

    Population density ranged from approximately just over 2 per km2 in Kiev Voivodeship to just over 14 per km2 in Ruthenian (Lviv) Voivodeship:

    Year 1580 population size - most recent estimate (older lower estimate):

    Chelm Voivodeship - 100101 inhabitants (66617) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82m_Land
    Belz Voivodeship - 92314 inhabitants (56117) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belz_Voivodeship
    Ruthenian Voivodeship - 642734 inhabitants (449914) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_Voivodeship
    Volhynian Voivodeship - 441000 inhabitants (293780) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhyn...%E2%80%931795)
    Podolian Voivodeship - 147000 inhabitants (97736) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podolian_Voivodeship
    Bratslav Voivodeship - 400000 inhabitants (311340) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brac%C5%82aw_Voivodeship
    Kiev Voivodeship - 450000 inhabitants (234040) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Voivodeship

    Map of population density for each region (based on higher estimates):



    ^^^
    In late 1500s and 1600s there was a constant flow of migrants from densely populated western regions to sparsely populated Kiev Voivodeship.
    I do not know about population estimates. Wow, that makes just a bit more than 2 millions.
    But I guess that population density in Kiev Voivodeship significantly varied. Most people likely lived in the North-Western part, around Zhytomyr and Kiev, while territories closer to Crimea were almost empty.

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  11. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Only in 19th century Russian Empire got territories that made historican Polish heartland, including Warsaw itselt.
    Indeed. As of 1795-1807 (when Napoleon created the Duchy of Warsaw) all of historical Polish heartland was controlled by Prussia and Austria.

    So obviously when I mentioned ca. 1/2 of the ethnic Polish population living under Russian ruled, I meant the period between 1815 and 1914.

    Before 1815 Russia controlled a much smaller percentage of the ethnic Polish population, pretty much only "Kresowiaks" (= Poles from Kresy):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    But I guess that population density in Kiev Voivodeship significantly varied. Most people likely lived in the North-Western part, around Zhytomyr and Kiev, while territories closer to Crimea were almost empty.
    Yes I agree. Those areas in the south-east were known as "Wild Fields" (Dzikie Pola) and it was mostly steppe with various forts and outposts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I've never heard that North-Eastern Ukraine, around Chernigov was called Zaporozha. Just look where Zaporizhia city is located.
    I agree, that label there is not accurate (but for Western Ukraine that map was rather accurate). This map shows the real location of the region:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...aporozzhya.png

    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 08:57 PM.

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  13. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Wow, that makes just a bit more than 2 millions.
    Yes, and I also have similar estimates for the rest of Poland

    Based on the same 1580 tax census data, by voivodeship:

    Region - abbreviation (see the map below) - population

    Malbork Voivodeship - MB - 55032 inhabitants
    Pomerelian Voivodeship - POM - 147565 inhabitants
    Chelmno Voivodeship - CHM - 94706 inhabitants
    Podlachian Voivodeship - PDL - 247225 inhabitants
    Mazovian Voivodeship - MAZ - 514900 inhabitants
    Plock Voivodeship - - 146000 inhabitants
    Rawa Voivodeship - RW - 138700 inhabitants
    Inowroclaw Voivodeship - INW - 105300 inhabitants
    Brzesc Kujawski Voivodeship - BRZ - 114600 inhabitants
    Kalisz Voivodeship - KAL - 314800 inhabitants
    Poznan Voivodeship - POZ - 276700 inhabitants
    Łeczyca Voivodeship - ŁCZ - 140800 inhabitants
    Sieradz Voivodeship - SIE - 223000 inhabitants
    Sandomierz Voivodeship - SAN - 517100 inhabitants
    Lublin Voivodeship - LUB - 184100 inhabitants
    Cracow Voivodeship - KRA - 476400 inhabitants

    For these two small regions I could not find data so far:

    SW - Siewierz Duchy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Siewierz
    LB - Lebork-Bytow Land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauenb...%C3%BCtow_Land

    For East Prussia I have estimates for year 1626:
    (450000 in year 1626, probably 400000 in 1580)

    Warmia - WM - 90000 inhabitants
    Ducal Prussia - 360000 inhabitants

    ^^^
    In total over 4 million for those 18 regions ca. year 1580.

    =====

    For areas outside of the borders of 16th century Poland:

    Silesia, an estimate for year 1577 - 1252445 inhabitants*
    Farther Pomerania (Hinterpommern) - 300000 (year 1600)

    For East Brandenburg I don't have data, but rather low population size.



    I also have similar estimates for year 1340 - they are based on Saint Peter's Pence payments:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter%27s_Pence

    =====

    *Of which ca. 30% in Upper Silesia, ca. 70% in Lower Silesia.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 09:00 PM.

  14. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    I do not know about population estimates. Wow, that makes just a bit more than 2 millions.
    Yes - compare it to estimates for the same year (1580) for the Polish heartland - it had about two times more people.

    So ancestors of today's Ukrainians back in the 1500s were surely less numerous than ancestors of Poles at that time.

    But it would be interesting to have also some ca. 1600 estimates for East Ukraine, including areas such as this region:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloboda_Ukraine



    ^^^
    Ukrainian_Belgorod academic samples probably represent the average genetic profile of Sloboda Ukraine in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    I've never heart about that. Why did it happen that Polish and Ukrainians mixed in Austrian territories more than in Russian Empire?
    Because the area where Poles and Ukrainians lived as neighbours and both in big numbers, was larger in Austrian Galicia.

    In Volhynia ethnic Poles were less numerous than in Eastern Galicia, and surely a larger percentage of them were nobility.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2020 at 09:10 PM.

  15. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Ukrainian_Belgorod academic samples probably represent the average genetic profile of Sloboda Ukraine in general?
    I'm sure that refers to Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi, which is on the opposite side of the country, as opposed to the town in Russia.
    Known ancestry: Romanian from Moldavia region (1/2 Romanian Iasi county + 1/4 Romanian Galati county + 1/4 Romanian Chernivtsi oblast Ukraine)
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