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Thread: DYS511=9 Cluster?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
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    Ethnicity
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    Y-DNA (P)
    U152: A9024/BY3644
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c3b 'Helga'

    England Wales Scotland Ireland European Union

    DYS511=9 Cluster?

    Rathna (thanks ) looked at my haplotype a while back and commented on my DYS511= 9

    I looked at all the U152 and saw this is not that common except in Brits and 2 others.

    All my group (11) : A:a:a:a: U152>YCA=19,22+dys447=27
    57169 Thomas Brown, b.c. 1795 Georgia or Tenn. United Kingdom
    107313 Thomas Slee d. 1762 Kirkby Stephen, England
    N4750 John Dwan b 1798- d 1878, County Cork, Ireland
    23943 Ignatious Butler born October 2, 1755, died 1810
    94588 JOSIAH TWEEDY b:10/16/1829 d:01/14/1918 N. Ireland
    287052 Abraham Valine, b. ABT 1650 England
    83705 Thomas Edmundson 1540 England

    Others
    170418 James Kessele, b.1812, Baden, mar Christina b 1821
    130533 Francis M. Frady, b. 1840-42?, NC

    At this point only U152** = 9 from Geno is Colangelo

    Is this a possible cluster or just a concidence ??

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Your thoughts are very welcome
    Last edited by Solothurn; 11-09-2013 at 12:32 PM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Solothurn For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (07-27-2016)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn View Post
    Rathna (thanks ) looked at my haplotype a while back and commented on my DYS511= 9

    I looked at all the U152 and saw this is not that common except in Brits and 2 others.

    All my group (11) : A:a:a:a: U152>YCA=19,22+dys447=27
    57169 Thomas Brown, b.c. 1795 Georgia or Tenn. United Kingdom
    107313 Thomas Slee d. 1762 Kirkby Stephen, England
    N4750 John Dwan b 1798- d 1878, County Cork, Ireland
    23943 Ignatious Butler born October 2, 1755, died 1810
    94588 JOSIAH TWEEDY b:10/16/1829 d:01/14/1918 N. Ireland
    287052 Abraham Valine, b. ABT 1650 England
    83705 Thomas Edmundson 1540 England

    Others
    170418 James Kessele, b.1812, Baden, mar Christina b 1821
    130533 Francis M. Frady, b. 1840-42?, NC

    At this point only U152** = 9 from Geno is Colangelo

    Is this a possible cluster or just a concidence ??

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Your thoughts are very welcome
    At a first glance it seems that the modal of R-U152 of these markers is 8 10 10 8 10 10. Of course a few mutations may have happened from the first R-U152*, and to understand if we have a cluster or independent mutations we should take in account all the other markers, but perhaps it could be useful to exam the last of the 67 ones:
    107313 Thomas Slee d. 1762 Kirkby Stephen, England England R1b1a2a1a1b3
    12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    120479 William Hall b.c. 1765 d: 1812 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b3
    12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    223929 Frank Colangelo, b.1889 San Fele, Italy; d.1974 Italy R1b1a2a1a1b3
    12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    N25073 Jacob Ziegler Sr., b.c.1800, Gaiberg, Germany Germany R1b1a2a1a1b3
    12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    204013 Jacob Musselman b c1698, to Bucks Co, PA c1724 Switzerland R1b1a2a1a1b3
    12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    A:a:a:a: U152>YCA=19,22+dys447=27 (L2- Z36- Z56- Z192- Z194- CTS7193- F1493- PF4363-, Order Geno 2.0
    12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    You can see that all these haplotypes have a recent common ancestor. Probably the most ancient are:
    B:1: U152 (L2- Z56-, some are also Z36-, Please order Z194 or Geno 2.0
    12 11 14 11 12 12 12
    12 11 15 11 12 12 12
    B:2: U152> Z192> Z194 (Z193-)B:2: U152> Z192> Z194 (Z193-)
    12 11 15 11 12 12 13
    Of course there are cluster of R-U152/L2 very old:
    D1: L2> L196 (Z49- Z258/367/384- S42/L141/654- L69- L135- L209- L408/409/443-, L343 L473 nt
    19736 Thomas Barton of Stafford Co VA, 1678 (English) England R1b1a2a1a1b3c2
    13 24 14 11 10-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 19 17 35-36 12 12 11 9 15-17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11 33 14 10 16 12 27 26 19 12 11 12 11 10 9 14 12 11 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 20 15 19 14 23 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
    D2: L2> L69/L408/L409/L443 (Z49- Z258/367/384- L135/343- L196- L209- L473- S42/L141/654-)
    65671 Leizor Iosevich Levitzskij, b.ca1766 Ukraine R1b1a2
    13 23 14 10 10-10 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 19 17 35-38 11 13 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 11 11 34 15 9 16 12 26 26 19 11 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 12 24 13 10 10 19 15 19 15 24 16 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 12 11
    Probably for this and others Geno 2.0 said that R-U152 was born in Middle East. I'd say that there are some Jewish clusters which may derive from Sea Peoples and not from introgressions after the Diaspora. But of course, as usual, it is one only haplotype and presupposes this European cluster:
    D5: U152> L2> L69 (Z49- Z258/367/384- L196- L408/409/443-, L135/343 L209 L473 S42/L141/654 nt)
    21910 David Lewis born 21 Feb 1775 Guilford, North Wales Wales R1b1a2a1a1b3c
    13 24 14 12 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 9 22 15 18 12 22 16 12 15 24 12 23 18 11 14 17 9 13 11
    D6: U152> L2> F1237 / L617 / P329 (Z49- Z367-)
    And lastly the clusters with DYS492=14:
    N16074 Pietro Dal Lago, 1660, Arzignano, Vicenza, Italy Italy R1b1a2a1a1b3
    13 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 13 30 17 8-10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15-16-17-17 11 10 19-23 15 14 18 16 35-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12 35 15 9 16 12 27 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 12 11 30 12 13 24 12 8 10 20 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Solothurn (11-11-2013)

  5. #3
    Fortunately that this haplotype has survived
    93364 Meir Ast, Berezhany (Brzezany), Ukraine 1842-1931 Poland R1b1a2
    13 23 14 10 10-10 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15-16-16-16 11 11 19-23 17 15 18 17 35-38 11 13 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 23 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
    with DYS492=12, thus this haplotype isn't so outlier:
    8 11 10 8 10 10
    and
    12 11 13 11 11 12 11
    It seems close to
    D1: L2> L196 (Z49- Z258/367/384- S42/L141/654- L69- L135- L209- L408/409/443-, L343 L473 nt):
    8 10 10 8 10 10
    and
    12 11 13 11 11 12 11

  6. #4
    1 14 13 29 23 10 13 13 10,10 13 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -
    1 of 114 Nowy Sacz, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
    Very likely this haplotype for its DYS438=13 is the same of the Jewish cluster. Difficult to say where the introgression is from.
    1 14 13 29 23 10 13 13 10,11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -
    1 of 275 Hamburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
    If this were the same haplotype, it would be in favor of a R-U152/L2/L69+ of North-East Europe.
    14 13 29 23 11 13 13 10,11 4 >>
    14 13 29 23 10 13 13 11,11 22 >>
    14 13 30 23 10 13 13 10,11 1 >>
    14 13 29 24 10 13 13 10,11 1
    1 14 13 29 24 10 13 13 10,11 12 13 15 19 16 17 23 12 19 23 13 13 17 11 - >>
    1 of 213 Puglia, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
    Difficult to say if these haplotypes belong to the same haplogroup, but they have DYS438=12 and not 13.
    Last edited by Rathna; 11-10-2013 at 09:59 AM.

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     Solothurn (11-11-2013)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    615
    Sex
    Location
    East Manchester
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    Euromutt
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152: A9024/BY3644
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c3b 'Helga'

    England Wales Scotland Ireland European Union
    I wonder if our DYS511=9 could be a possible 'rarity' pointing to SNP S20550+?

    Myself and Weir are now U152+, S20550+. Kit 130533 Frady, has agreed to order when S20550+ becomes available (Rich has requested it with them). No reply from Kessele and I have not contacted the other 'Brits'. I will when FTDNA release it for testing
    LivingDNA:

    GB and Ire 98.5%
    South Germanic 1.5%


    Ancestry:

    Eng, Wales & NW Euro 50%
    North Eng, Ire and Scot 39%
    Norway 5%
    Sweden 4%
    Germanic Europe 2%

    NatGen:

    42% North Euro
    37% Mediterranean
    19% SW Asian

    Known ancestral lines:

    U152: BY3644 @ Vallum Aelium
    H1c3b Salford (mother)
    U4a3a Biddick, Durham (pat grandfather's mother)
    U198 Stanhope, Durham (pat gg grandfather)
    K1a-T195C! Wigan, Lancs (pat grandmother)

  9. #6
    Registered Users
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    199
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    Location
    The Netherlands
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-U152>A274>A275
    mtDNA (M)
    H1k1

    Netherlands Netherlands Limburg Netherlands Noord-Brabant
    DYS511=9 isn't unique to the U152*-group, but in combination with YCAII=19-22 or DYS447=27, it could be an indicator for S20550.
    Avatar:
    Roman helmet, gilded silver, 319-323 A.D. Made by Marcus Titus Lunamis. Found in 1910, Helenaveen, The Netherlands.
    Its owner belonged to the sixth cavalry unit of the Equites Stablesiani. On the right side of the helmet cap it says ‘Stablesia VI'.

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     Solothurn (09-08-2014)

  11. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    615
    Sex
    Location
    East Manchester
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
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    Y-DNA (P)
    U152: A9024/BY3644
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c3b 'Helga'

    England Wales Scotland Ireland European Union
    I hope so. Kessele and Frady are YCAII=19-22
    LivingDNA:

    GB and Ire 98.5%
    South Germanic 1.5%


    Ancestry:

    Eng, Wales & NW Euro 50%
    North Eng, Ire and Scot 39%
    Norway 5%
    Sweden 4%
    Germanic Europe 2%

    NatGen:

    42% North Euro
    37% Mediterranean
    19% SW Asian

    Known ancestral lines:

    U152: BY3644 @ Vallum Aelium
    H1c3b Salford (mother)
    U4a3a Biddick, Durham (pat grandfather's mother)
    U198 Stanhope, Durham (pat gg grandfather)
    K1a-T195C! Wigan, Lancs (pat grandmother)

  12. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    199
    Sex
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-U152>A274>A275
    mtDNA (M)
    H1k1

    Netherlands Netherlands Limburg Netherlands Noord-Brabant
    DYS447=27 + YCAII=19-22 + DYS511=9

    188234 Rowley
    250602 Bonnington
    N87068 Atkins
    135292 Pate
    159746 Hickerson
    271196 Holland
    106753 Alexander
    111641 -
    134213 Rowley

    YCAII=19-22 + DYS511=9

    170418 Kessele
    130533 Frady
    287052 Valine
    83705 Edmundson

    DYS511=9

    N4750 Dwan
    94588 Tweedy
    223929 Colangelo
    57169 Brown
    Avatar:
    Roman helmet, gilded silver, 319-323 A.D. Made by Marcus Titus Lunamis. Found in 1910, Helenaveen, The Netherlands.
    Its owner belonged to the sixth cavalry unit of the Equites Stablesiani. On the right side of the helmet cap it says ‘Stablesia VI'.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to mafe For This Useful Post:

     Solothurn (09-09-2014)

  14. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    615
    Sex
    Location
    East Manchester
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    Euromutt
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152: A9024/BY3644
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c3b 'Helga'

    England Wales Scotland Ireland European Union
    And also another DYS511=9 23943 Butler, awaiting his BigY results

    Quote Originally Posted by mafe View Post
    DYS447=27 + YCAII=19-22 + DYS511=9

    188234 Rowley
    250602 Bonnington
    N87068 Atkins
    135292 Pate
    159746 Hickerson
    271196 Holland
    106753 Alexander
    111641 -
    134213 Rowley

    YCAII=19-22 + DYS511=9

    170418 Kessele
    130533 Frady
    287052 Valine
    83705 Edmundson

    DYS511=9

    N4750 Dwan
    94588 Tweedy
    223929 Colangelo
    57169 Brown
    Last edited by Solothurn; 09-13-2014 at 02:53 PM.
    LivingDNA:

    GB and Ire 98.5%
    South Germanic 1.5%


    Ancestry:

    Eng, Wales & NW Euro 50%
    North Eng, Ire and Scot 39%
    Norway 5%
    Sweden 4%
    Germanic Europe 2%

    NatGen:

    42% North Euro
    37% Mediterranean
    19% SW Asian

    Known ancestral lines:

    U152: BY3644 @ Vallum Aelium
    H1c3b Salford (mother)
    U4a3a Biddick, Durham (pat grandfather's mother)
    U198 Stanhope, Durham (pat gg grandfather)
    K1a-T195C! Wigan, Lancs (pat grandmother)

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Solothurn For This Useful Post:

     mafe (09-14-2014)

  16. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    615
    Sex
    Location
    East Manchester
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    Euromutt
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152: A9024/BY3644
    mtDNA (M)
    H1c3b 'Helga'

    England Wales Scotland Ireland European Union
    S20550+

    188234 Rowley
    250602 Bonnington

    If I can get a $20 voucher I will order it, just to see a + on FTDNA
    LivingDNA:

    GB and Ire 98.5%
    South Germanic 1.5%


    Ancestry:

    Eng, Wales & NW Euro 50%
    North Eng, Ire and Scot 39%
    Norway 5%
    Sweden 4%
    Germanic Europe 2%

    NatGen:

    42% North Euro
    37% Mediterranean
    19% SW Asian

    Known ancestral lines:

    U152: BY3644 @ Vallum Aelium
    H1c3b Salford (mother)
    U4a3a Biddick, Durham (pat grandfather's mother)
    U198 Stanhope, Durham (pat gg grandfather)
    K1a-T195C! Wigan, Lancs (pat grandmother)

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Solothurn For This Useful Post:

     mafe (12-09-2014)

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