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Thread: Ancient Celtic Y dna discussion

  1. #1
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    Ancient Celtic Y dna discussion

    Well I decided to change things up from my main focuses on Southern Europe and Middle East, to ask and have a discussion on the Y dna of the ancient Celts.

    I believe at the moment there are several published.

    I am sure a huge paper can come out considering there is over 2000 tombs alone at HallStatt. Interestingly too I wonder why no major paper on Hallstatt and La Tene ever came out?

    I know R1b-U152 will be involved and would like to know which branches are Celtic, by the looks of it, branches of L2, Z36 and Z56 will turn out to be Celtic.

    Any other branches of R1b?

    I am aware G-L497 was found also, and its no shocker either based on current distribution, it should be the second most common Y dna amongst them. But are all branches of L497 likely to be Celtic or some yes and some no?

    I have no clue about which I clades should be Celtic, so any I experts feel free to weigh in I clades that are likely to be Celtic.

    E-V13 looks like it was involved as well, clades like L17, L540, and branches of S7461.

    For J2, definitely without a doubt J2b-L283>Z631 is Celtic in origin and J2a-Z6057>Y16842 looks very likely to be Celtic as well.

    For T, T-CTS1848 looks to be Celtic as well.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Well I decided to change things up from my main focuses on Southern Europe and Middle East, to ask and have a discussion on the Y dna of the ancient Celts.

    I believe at the moment there are several published.

    I am sure a huge paper can come out considering there is over 2000 tombs alone at HallStatt. Interestingly too I wonder why no major paper on Hallstatt and La Tene ever came out?

    I know R1b-U152 will be involved and would like to know which branches are Celtic, by the looks of it, branches of L2, Z36 and Z56 will turn out to be Celtic.

    Any other branches of R1b?

    I am aware G-L497 was found also, and its no shocker either based on current distribution, it should be the second most common Y dna amongst them. But are all branches of L497 likely to be Celtic or some yes and some no?

    I have no clue about which I clades should be Celtic, so any I experts feel free to weigh in I clades that are likely to be Celtic.

    E-V13 looks like it was involved as well, clades like L17, L540, and branches of S7461.

    For J2, definitely without a doubt J2b-L283>Z631 is Celtic in origin and J2a-Z6057>Y16842 looks very likely to be Celtic as well.

    For T, T-CTS1848 looks to be Celtic as well.
    I am curious...What makes you think that J2a-Z6057>Y16842 is likely to be of Celtic origins?

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I am curious...What makes you think that J2a-Z6057>Y16842 is likely to be of Celtic origins?
    Its found at decent numbers throughout Northern and Central Europe (for a J2 clade) and its age in British samples seems to suggest this, you also find it right across in Belgium and France.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  7. #4
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    Based on the modern distribution of G-L497, it seems very likely that Hallstatt culture spread it during the Iron Age, and probably earlier with Italic speakers to Italy through Urnfield>Proto-Villanova. Concerning R-U152, Z56 seems to be rather associated with Italic speakers and Z36 is undoubtedly a Celtic clade.

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Well I decided to change things up from my main focuses on Southern Europe and Middle East, to ask and have a discussion on the Y dna of the ancient Celts.

    I believe at the moment there are several published.

    I am sure a huge paper can come out considering there is over 2000 tombs alone at HallStatt. Interestingly too I wonder why no major paper on Hallstatt and La Tene ever came out?

    I know R1b-U152 will be involved and would like to know which branches are Celtic, by the looks of it, branches of L2, Z36 and Z56 will turn out to be Celtic.

    Any other branches of R1b?

    I am aware G-L497 was found also, and its no shocker either based on current distribution, it should be the second most common Y dna amongst them. But are all branches of L497 likely to be Celtic or some yes and some no?

    I have no clue about which I clades should be Celtic, so any I experts feel free to weigh in I clades that are likely to be Celtic.

    E-V13 looks like it was involved as well, clades like L17, L540, and branches of S7461.

    For J2, definitely without a doubt J2b-L283>Z631 is Celtic in origin and J2a-Z6057>Y16842 looks very likely to be Celtic as well.

    For T, T-CTS1848 looks to be Celtic as well.
    I'm not aware of any aDNA other than R1b and G-P303 found amongst the Celtic cultural remains.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I'm not aware of any aDNA other than R1b and G-P303 found amongst the Celtic cultural remains.
    There is less than 10 available that’s why, when a large paper comes out we’ll see a variety in my opinion.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    There is less than 10 available that’s why, when a large paper comes out we’ll see a variety in my opinion.
    Possibly. That said, the barbarian YDNA hasn't been all that varied though, outside two of the three most common groups in the central European barbarian world - I2-M223 and R1b.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Possibly. That said, the barbarian YDNA hasn't been all that varied though, outside two of the three most common groups in the central European barbarian world - I2-M223 and R1b.
    That is a good point, though i’ll post the Yfull branch of all the non R1b and G-L497 lineages, even looking at ftdna’s projects you’ll come to similar conclusions.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L17/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/ (This one I think will have both Celtic and Roman branches)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16842/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS1848/

    Trust me look at the distribution of these branches on ftdna.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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    The Hinxton Celts in Britain were R1b-L21. They were recovered in the territory of the Belgic Catuvellauni and dated to the time the Catuvellauni lived there.

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  19. #10
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    Some of us that go back this far (2006) will remember the Urnfield Culture samples from the Lichtenstein Cave. Based on STRs, there was as follows:

    13x I-S23
    2x R1a
    1x R1b

    Source: Molekulargenetische Verwandtschaftsanalysen am prähistorischen Skelettkollektiv der Lichtensteinhöhle

    The two Hinxton, England Iron Celts were:
    R1b-L21+
    R1b-L21+ DF13+

    Two Late Bronze Age (1000-800 BC) samples from Scotland:
    R1b-L21+
    R1b-P312+ (xL21)

    Roman Celts - I add these here because based on autosomal DNA they were either locals or were sourced from other Celtic lands like the Rhine etc. For that reason I excluded the J2 sample that plots with modern day Saudi Arabians:

    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1-M405
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a-L52/L11
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a2c2-DF63
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a2b-S28
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a-L52
    Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a1-M405

    The Hallstatt DA111 sample was:
    R1b-U152+ L2+
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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