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Thread: 23andme Y haplogroup: dubious results

  1. #11
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    Hello all,

    I have not yet received my final results from Yseq.

    Nevertheless Yseq has already launched the processing of Z31321 and CTS6369, although the results regarding the previous processing of Z6150 (equivalent to Z30771) have not been yet communicated.

    Furthermore I have told them that I suspected 23andme to have wrongly extrapolated my terminal SNP (Z30771 not been tested, neither any equivalent).

    So I guess that the SNP Z6150 test is negative, if not they would have not started to test the sister subclades. (knowing that the logic of the process is downstream).

    I am afraid that my terminal SNP is just unknown.

    That is why I am thinking to perform a Big Y-500 test, knowing that FTDNA proposes it till December the 31th for 500$ (-150$), so I have to make a decision rapidly, and furthermore the estimated time to receive the kit is 9 days.

    The FTDNA recommendation is to get in touch with an administrator of the project (in my case the G-L497 project), so my intention was to email to Rolf Langland, for telling him about my objectives and getting advices.

    Do you think that Rolf Langland is the right person to contact? (any advice is welcomed)

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil1973 View Post
    Hello all,

    I have not yet received my final results from Yseq.

    Nevertheless Yseq has already launched the processing of Z31321 and CTS6369, although the results regarding the previous processing of Z6150 (equivalent to Z30771) have not been yet communicated.

    Furthermore I have told them that I suspected 23andme to have wrongly extrapolated my terminal SNP (Z30771 not been tested, neither any equivalent).

    So I guess that the SNP Z6150 test is negative, if not they would have not started to test the sister subclades. (knowing that the logic of the process is downstream).

    I am afraid that my terminal SNP is just unknown.

    That is why I am thinking to perform a Big Y-500 test, knowing that FTDNA proposes it till December the 31th for 500$ (-150$), so I have to make a decision rapidly, and furthermore the estimated time to receive the kit is 9 days.

    The FTDNA recommendation is to get in touch with an administrator of the project (in my case the G-L497 project), so my intention was to email to Rolf Langland, for telling him about my objectives and getting advices.

    Do you think that Rolf Langland is the right person to contact? (any advice is welcomed)
    Just to be clear if you are new to YSEQ that results can appear in two different places. They are reported in a somewhat ad-hoc fashion as a log entry under the specific order but they also should be showing under Results/Alleles (along with lots of nearby SNPs you didn't order!).

    Normally they only kick off one or two at a time. Have you checked under Alleles for Z6150?

    Typically the rolling report on the order will say something like
    Marker1+
    Marker 2 processing

    You can also find that at the top of the Order Information page they display SNPs queued up for testing but not yet underway.

    I will give you some advice. Get the YSEQ WGS test. It is better than the BigY. :-)
    Then upload it to YFull.com.
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    GEDMatch: A828783 (autosomal DNA), 9427684 (GEDCOM) for segment matching DO NOT POST ADMIXTURE REPORTS USING MY KIT
    WGS (Full Genomes Nov 2015, YSEQ Feb 2019) - further WGS tests pending ;-)
    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
    Hidden Content

  3. #13
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    Hello MacUalraig,

    Here are my results regarding the Z(.*) subclades (no Z6150):

    2018-10-02 Z726 ChrY 14999897 14999897 C+
    free Z746 ChrY 14106768 14106768 T+
    2018-10-02 Z16775 ChrY 15229827 15229827 C-
    free Z19223 ChrY 15229600 15229600 C-
    free Z22480 ChrY15229603 15229603 G-
    free Z32113 ChrY 14999590 14999590 T-
    free Z32250 ChrY 15229507 15229507 G-
    free Z37933 ChrY 14999722 14999722 T-
    free Z39111 ChrY 13503561 13503561 C-
    free Z41558 ChrY 13503292 13503292 C-
    2018-10-02 Z42514 ChrY 14106741 14106741 G-
    free Z44968 ChrY 14999617 14999617 T-
    free ZS2466 ChrY 15229567 15229567 G-
    free ZS8432 ChrY 13503534 13503534 C-

    Although Z6150 is in my order history from more than one week (and the sister subclades have already been added!)

    1 x G Superclade Panel $99.00
    1 x L1259 $0.00
    1 x L497 $0.00
    1 x G2a-L497 Panel $0.00
    1 x Z726 $0.00
    1 x S2808 $0.00
    1 x CTS4803 $0.00
    1 x Z16775 $0.00
    1 x Z6150 $0.00
    1 x Z42514 $0.00
    1 x Z31321 $0.00
    1 x CTS6369 $0.00

    Yes maybe Yseq Full Genome is better (and more expensive), but what’s about the Database? (apparently FTDNA database is much more larger than Yfull)

    Do you think that FTDNA will allow me to join a project and to compare my Y DNA with their paternal lineages, even if I have performed my tests outside their company?

  4. #14
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    G-CTS4803*

    Hello MacUalraig,

    Here are my results regarding the Z(.*) subclades (no Z6150):

    2018-10-02 Z726 ChrY 14999897 14999897 C+
    free Z746 ChrY 14106768 14106768 T+
    2018-10-02 Z16775 ChrY 15229827 15229827 C-
    free Z19223 ChrY 15229600 15229600 C-
    free Z22480 ChrY15229603 15229603 G-
    free Z32113 ChrY 14999590 14999590 T-
    free Z32250 ChrY 15229507 15229507 G-
    free Z37933 ChrY 14999722 14999722 T-
    free Z39111 ChrY 13503561 13503561 C-
    free Z41558 ChrY 13503292 13503292 C-
    2018-10-02 Z42514 ChrY 14106741 14106741 G-
    free Z44968 ChrY 14999617 14999617 T-
    free ZS2466 ChrY 15229567 15229567 G-
    free ZS8432 ChrY 13503534 13503534 C-

    Although Z6150 is in my order history from more than one week (and the sister subclades have already been added!)

    1 x G Superclade Panel $99.00
    1 x L1259 $0.00
    1 x L497 $0.00
    1 x G2a-L497 Panel $0.00
    1 x Z726 $0.00
    1 x S2808 $0.00
    1 x CTS4803 $0.00
    1 x Z16775 $0.00
    1 x Z6150 $0.00
    1 x Z42514 $0.00
    1 x Z31321 $0.00
    1 x CTS6369 $0.00

    Yes maybe Yseq Full Genome is better (and more expensive), but what’s about the Database? (apparently FTDNA database is much more larger than Yfull)

    Do you think that FTDNA will allow me to join a project and to compare my Y DNA with their paternal lineages, even if I have performed my tests outside their company?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil1973 View Post
    Hello MacUalraig,

    Here are my results regarding the Z(.*) subclades (no Z6150):

    2018-10-02 Z726 ChrY 14999897 14999897 C+
    free Z746 ChrY 14106768 14106768 T+
    2018-10-02 Z16775 ChrY 15229827 15229827 C-
    free Z19223 ChrY 15229600 15229600 C-
    free Z22480 ChrY15229603 15229603 G-
    free Z32113 ChrY 14999590 14999590 T-
    free Z32250 ChrY 15229507 15229507 G-
    free Z37933 ChrY 14999722 14999722 T-
    free Z39111 ChrY 13503561 13503561 C-
    free Z41558 ChrY 13503292 13503292 C-
    2018-10-02 Z42514 ChrY 14106741 14106741 G-
    free Z44968 ChrY 14999617 14999617 T-
    free ZS2466 ChrY 15229567 15229567 G-
    free ZS8432 ChrY 13503534 13503534 C-

    Although Z6150 is in my order history from more than one week (and the sister subclades have already been added!)

    1 x G Superclade Panel $99.00
    1 x L1259 $0.00
    1 x L497 $0.00
    1 x G2a-L497 Panel $0.00
    1 x Z726 $0.00
    1 x S2808 $0.00
    1 x CTS4803 $0.00
    1 x Z16775 $0.00
    1 x Z6150 $0.00
    1 x Z42514 $0.00
    1 x Z31321 $0.00
    1 x CTS6369 $0.00

    Yes maybe Yseq Full Genome is better (and more expensive), but what’s about the Database? (apparently FTDNA database is much more larger than Yfull)

    Do you think that FTDNA will allow me to join a project and to compare my Y DNA with their paternal lineages, even if I have performed my tests outside their company?
    As I was saying, they queue up some SNPs in that 'order' list you reproduced. But which ones get actually run will depend on your progress/results as you trraverse the testing tree for the panel. Keep an eye on the panel tree https://www.yseq.net/product_info.ph...ducts_id=11921.

    Sibling branches aren't necessarily tested in the order they appear on the tree (unfortunately) although bushy ones tend to come before thin branches. Presumably you have CTS4803+ in your alleles results and perhaps S2808- too?

    How much help you get from the ft rep varies, some are very open-minded and some are very proprietary. Some encourage everyone to upload to YFull and some try very hard to put them off. Think tied agent v independent financial adviser :-)
    Last edited by MacUalraig; 12-15-2018 at 01:44 PM.
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    GEDMatch: A828783 (autosomal DNA), 9427684 (GEDCOM) for segment matching DO NOT POST ADMIXTURE REPORTS USING MY KIT
    WGS (Full Genomes Nov 2015, YSEQ Feb 2019) - further WGS tests pending ;-)
    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
    Hidden Content

  6. #16
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    Yes, for the moment I am G-CTS4803+->(?), S2808-, but I am sure to have seen Z6150 (with Z42514, which has already been tested negative), having appeared in my order history long before its sister subclades Z31321 and CTS6369, so it is very unusual, because usually no new SNP is processed if you have not gotten the results for the two previous ones.

    Maybe Yseq is more cautious than usual, because I told them about my doubts regarding 23andme results. (and so maybe because of the solidarity between DNA partners…)

    I am afraid that I am under CTS4803 in the middle of nowhere, and so my last chance would be the “novel variants”.

    But is it possible to compare the “novel variants” with other lineages, knowing that these novel variants have not the status of “(new) SNP” and so are not present in the phylogenetic tree?

    Now if I look at the Yfull tree, I see 4 individuals which are CTS4803*, and if I look at the FTDNA L497 project I see approximately 30 or 40 individuals CTS4803*.

    In fact my priority is to determine the ethnicity of my paternal lineage before the 12th century (so before the genealogical period).

  7. #17
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    YSEQ Verdict:

    Your final haplogroup is G2a-CTS4803*.
    All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

    Quick results summary:
    L1259 G+
    L497 T+
    Z726 C+
    S2808 G-
    CTS4803 A+
    Z16775 C-
    Z6150 C-
    Z42514 G-
    Z31321 T-
    CTS6369 G-
    F720 G-
    FGC60019 C-
    S15656 G-

    And so: 23andme wrong ("your paternal haplogroup is G-Z30771")

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil1973 View Post
    YSEQ Verdict:

    Your final haplogroup is G2a-CTS4803*.
    All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

    Quick results summary:
    L1259 G+
    L497 T+
    Z726 C+
    S2808 G-
    CTS4803 A+
    Z16775 C-
    Z6150 C-
    Z42514 G-
    Z31321 T-
    CTS6369 G-
    F720 G-
    FGC60019 C-
    S15656 G-

    And so: 23andme wrong ("your paternal haplogroup is G-Z30771")
    G2a-CTS4803 is now phylogenetically equivalent with Z3441. See https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-CTS4803/ and even in 2017 they were equivalents at ISOGG. See https://isogg.org/tree/2017/ISOGG_HapgrpG17.html

    23andme did show you positive for Z3441 in the raw data so 23andme did get that part correct. The raw data has not been proven to have a false positive for your positive result of Z3441 and the upstream SNPs definitely aren't . So far, the error was due to an interpretation of the raw data and the failure of 23andme in using the specific SNP tested instead of what was a phylogenetic equivalent in 2015 and January 2016.

    The test by Yseq would have been recomended anyway though so it is a good thing you got it. Now you know you are negative for known subclades tested at Yseq but you still do not know if there is someone at FTDNA that has had a Big Y test that shares novel mutations with you or some newly found subclades not included in the Yseq test.

  9. #19
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    Yes, that’s exactly where I stand now, that is why I have ordered a Big Y 500 test, for 3 main raisons:

    -Discovery of novel variants (unknown SNP(s))
    -The 111 STR markers
    -Finding Y cousins

    Although I am only interested in the historical period (before the 12th century), I think that I can take advantage of the 111 STR markers too, example (ref FTDNA): 99% chance of being related at the 29th generation or less for a genetic distance of 10. (not really interesting from a genealogical point of view, but very interesting from an historical point of view).

    I have spent quite a lot of time to study the subclade CTS4803 and my conclusion is the same as the professional genealogist Antony Adolph: it corresponds to a Proto-Germanic group of the Nordic Bronze Age. (they were probably descendants of the G2a Neolithic Farmers who have introduced the agriculture in the South of Scandinavia during the Funnel-Beaker culture).

    The difficulty is that the Germanic tribes, which were confined in the Jutland Peninsula/South Scandinavia, at the Nordic Bronze Age, have spread all over Europe since then: Franks in France, Visigoths in Spain, Ostrogoths and Lombards in Italy, Saxons in England, Norsemen in Scandinavia, Normans in England, Normandy and Sicilia, Dutch people in Netherlands, Alemanni in Germany etc…

    So my objective is to identify the ethnicity of my Y cousins, around or after the Great Invasions, so that I will be able to determine more accurately the Germanic subgroup to which my paternal lineage belonged around the Year-thousand.

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