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Thread: Mount Lebanon provides an opportunity to study DNA from the ancient Near East

  1. #11
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    R1b basal project:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    R1b in the Levant is L584 and L277 downstream of Z2103, PF7562 which is a direct descendant of M269, and V88, which is also common in other Afro-Asiatic groups.

    A recently discovered reference to mariannuin a letter from Tell Leilān in Northern Syria dating shortly before the end of Zimri-Lim s reign in 1761 BCE(Eidem 2014: 142) extends the Indo-Aryan linguistic presence in Syria back two centuries prior to the formation of the Mitanni state. The word is generally seen as a Hurrianized form of the Indo-Aryan word *marya-(man/youth)(von Dassow 2008: 9697with literature) and taken to refer to a type of military personnel associated with chariot warfare across the Near East (eadempp. 268314).
    https://zenodo.org/record/1240524#.Wyhm2IpvbIX

    I think these Indic speakers never actually been to South Asia, and also I think the majority of their male lineage was R1b-Z2103 (my guess L277) not R1a, which is barely 1%.

    I'm proudly flexible in attributing Y-DNA to cultural groups, any group has a set of male lineages (L1,L2,L3 ... Ln), that may not be related to each other, but are one unit culturally, when this group diversifies and migrates, say to two different locations, a subset (that could include all or some of these lineages) of the original male haplogroups will be represented in these two locations. wasn't Z2103 found in Sintashta? it's not a major South Asian haplogroup.

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  3. #12
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    i think on the Hittites as one of the sources of the steppe admixture
    to the levant
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittit...ite_Empire.png

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  5. #13
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    Armenia MLBA could be a source for Steppe ancestry in the Near East, Trialeti culture which succeeded Kura-Araxes had many elements in common with Steppe cultures, Armenia_MLBA is modeled with Kura-Araxes as one source, and the other from a Sintashta like group, I believe it represents a migration of already separated Armenic, Hellenic, and the Indic group of northern Mesopotamia, but other Indo-Iranians had, of course, different migration paths.

    the Levant has an ancestry from Armenia_MLBA:


    Model Sample Details Fit Armenia MLBA Levant BA North
    Armenia_MLBA +Levant_BA_North Lebanese_Christian:Average 1.7314 18.33 81.67



    Model Sample Details Fit Armenia MLBA Dinka Levant BA South
    Armenia_MLBA +Dinka +Levant_BA_South Palestinian:Average 1.7496 28.33 5.83 65.83

    since I came this far, lets put it in a unified model and explain the proto Greeks

    Middle Bronze Age destruction, wasn't caused by Hittites, but eventual Balkanic speakers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...ent_Near_East)

    Destruction


    Archaeological evidence shows that the cities of Erzerum, Sivas, Pulur Huyuk near Baiburt, Kultepe near Hafik, and Maltepe near Sivas were destroyed during the Middle Bronze Age. The great trading city of Kanesh (Level II) was also destroyed. From there in the hill country between Halys the destruction layers from this time tell the same story. Karaoglan, Bitik, Polatli and Gordion were burnt, as well as Etiyokusu and Cerkes. Further west near the Dardanelles the two large mounds of Korpruoren and Tavsanli, west of Kutahya, show the same signs of being destroyed.

    The destruction even crossed into Europe in what is now Bulgaria. The migration brought an end to Bulgaria's Early Bronze Age, with archaeological evidence showing that the Yunacite, Salcutza, and Esero centers had a sudden mass desertion during this time.
    Into Greece


    From the Dardanelles, the refugee invaders moved into mainland Greece, and the Peloponnese saw burnt and abandoned cities on par with the much later Dorian invasion which destroyed the Mycenaean civilization.[1] At this time, 1900 BC, destruction layers can be found at southern Greek sites like Orchomenos, Eutresis (de), Hagios Kosmas, Raphina, Apesokari, Korakou, Zygouries, Tiryns, Asine, Malthi and Asea. Many other sites are deserted, e.g. Yiriza, Synoro, Ayios Gerasimos, Kophovouni, Makrovouni, Palaiopyrgos, etc. This destruction across Greece also coincided with the arrival of a new culture that had no connection with the Early Helladic civilization, who were the original inhabitants.[1] Northern Greece escaped destruction, as well as southern Anatolia, which during this time showed no disturbances.
    this also helps:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post470106

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Well, if for some reason the Assyrians, which are known to have extensively used exiles and populations transfer as a mean to discourage and prevent mutiny, exiled 3-4 villages with mostly Mitanni ethnic background to the Levant region, that might be possible. Judging by how haplogroup Q-M242 appears in the Middle East:



    It does seem to be slightly elevated specifically in Iran, Central Anatolia and the Levant (and I'll also add Southern Mesopotamia).

    But who knows.

    That map also correlates nicely btw with the Syro-Hittite "states" of the Iron Age:



    So this could also be another source.
    that southern part of the hittite empire ( south -turkey and levant ) on your map is the origins of luwain people which lasted many centuries after the collapse of the hittites in the late bronze-age

    It is said the Luwains come from proto-hurrian people of the armenian highlands ( but I cannot find any proof of this )
    Last edited by vettor; 10-17-2018 at 04:52 PM.

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Armenia MLBA could be a source for Steppe ancestry in the Near East, Trialeti culture which succeeded Kura-Araxes had many elements in common with Steppe cultures, Armenia_MLBA is modeled with Kura-Araxes as one source, and the other from a Sintashta like group, I believe it represents a migration of already separated Armenic, Hellenic, and the Indic group of northern Mesopotamia, but other Indo-Iranians had, of course, different migration paths.

    the Levant has an ancestry from Armenia_MLBA:


    Model Sample Details Fit Armenia MLBA Levant BA North
    Armenia_MLBA +Levant_BA_North Lebanese_Christian:Average 1.7314 18.33 81.67



    Model Sample Details Fit Armenia MLBA Dinka Levant BA South
    Armenia_MLBA +Dinka +Levant_BA_South Palestinian:Average 1.7496 28.33 5.83 65.83
    equivalently breaking Armenia_MLBA to its Sintashta and Kura-Araxes components:

    Model Sample Details Fit Armenia EBA Dinka Levant BA South Sintashta MLBA
    Armenia_EBA +Dinka +Levant_BA_South +Sintashta_MLBA Palestinian:Average 1.5524 20 5.83 65.83 8.33

    Model Sample Details Fit Armenia EBA Levant BA North Sintashta MLBA
    Armenia_EBA +Levant_BA_North +Sintashta_MLBA Lebanese_Christian:Average 1.4524 8.33 84.17 7.5

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  11. #16
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    Kind of have to echo posters above (Erik and others), that there are too many documented multi-directional population movements for me to feel very confident in a simple single source of steppe shift. It is probably very multi directional. Single vectors make sense to talk about in cases where we have sharply different populations that are almost homogenous, but in this instance...

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  13. #17
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    To reiterate what I was saying before now that there are numbers I can put to it, if we assume Lebanese are 7% Steppe and pre-Slavic Greeks were 20%, then it means Lebanese would have to be almost 35-40% Greek. I don't see this as feasible.

    My opinion is the Steppe input in the Levant comes from the Caucasus.

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  15. #18
    Could this be due to importation of slaves from regions rich in steppe ancestry by the city states Tyre, Sidon, etc?

  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by esg5026 View Post
    Could this be due to importation of slaves from regions rich in steppe ancestry by the city states Tyre, Sidon, etc?
    That would need to be enormous amount of slaves, and from extremely Steppe-rich population. I don't think this is a likely scenario.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  18. #20
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    Could it be that this ancestry was gradually assimilated into the current quantity? Perhaps the Mitanni, Persians then Italic Romans (all rich in Steppe ancestry) could have brought this component?
    Paternal family Y-DNA: E-V12 (E1b1b1a1a1) [Egyptian] Peaks at Southern Egypt (74%)

    Maternal Y-DNA: J-P58+ (J1a2a1a2+) [Mesopotamian] Peaks at Southern Iraq (81%)

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