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Thread: U152 - FTDNA BIG Y DNA test

  1. #1
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    U152 - FTDNA BIG Y DNA test

    • 25000 known SNPs
    • 10 million base-pair coverage
    • $495 (sale ends December 1st 2013)


    Is there a reasonable chance they will find new "U152" SNPs not tested by Geno 2.0?
    Last edited by mafe; 11-10-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Mafe,

    I am taking a wait and see attitude after seeing some posts and private communications elsewhere. Especially given Thomas Krahn's concerns and he developed the product! I have noted comments by others and heard directly that less expensive products will be offered by Full Genomes so I am keeping my FTDNA wallet in my back pocket and let somebody else be the guinea pig. I was not impressed with the GENO 2.0 roll out and would just as soon avoid that fiasco. [For those that don't remember one of my Group participants got someone else's results and many of the first batch of SNPs turned out be unreliable due to probe problems].

    It's tempting but My wait and see attitude has proved prudent with Chromo 2 and Geno 2.0. And after waiting for the first batches of Full Genomes to return I am going to go for the whole thing and probably save money in the long run. Also I can say their customer support is excellent so far.

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     mafe (11-10-2013)

  4. #3
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    Seeing these concerns, I think I'll adopt the wait and see attitude. If BIG Y is like WTY there is no guarantee they will find new SNPs...and $495 is alot of money for nothing. Testing the full shebang with Full Genomes seems to be the only guarantee to find new SNPs at the moment, but unfortunately their current price is too hefty for my wallet.
    Avatar:
    Roman helmet, gilded silver, 319-323 A.D. Made by Marcus Titus Lunamis. Found in 1910, Helenaveen, The Netherlands.
    Its owner belonged to the sixth cavalry unit of the Equites Stablesiani. On the right side of the helmet cap it says ‘Stablesia VI'.

  5. #4
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    I have heard Geno 3.0 will appear sooner than first thought.

    Q. So what is the answer for * paying $$$ to search for new SNPs?

    A. I have heard on the mailing lists that FTDNA are going to produce a new Y backbone test to search for new SNPs. As $39 each time could work out expensive, especially with new chips revealing new SNPs

    "FTDNA announced at their conference that they will be bringing back a redesigned backbone test. No exact date was given, but I expect that it will be by mid-year."


    Quote Originally Posted by mafe View Post
    Seeing these concerns, I think I'll adopt the wait and see attitude. If BIG Y is like WTY there is no guarantee they will find new SNPs...and $495 is alot of money for nothing. Testing the full shebang with Full Genomes seems to be the only guarantee to find new SNPs at the moment, but unfortunately their current price is too hefty for my wallet.
    Last edited by Solothurn; 11-11-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  6. #5
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    Considering that we will have soon the results of FGS, I'll wait for the new SNPs discovered with FGS and I'll test those.

    If the test on the new SNPs will not give results then BIG-Y will seem like a good option since I've tested 111mrk and I don't care full-mtDNA-seq
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn View Post
    I have heard Geno 3.0 will appear sooner than first thought.

    Q. So what is the answer for * paying $$$ to search for new SNPs?

    A. I have heard on the mailing lists that FTDNA are going to produce a new Y backbone test to search for new SNPs. As $39 each time could work out expensive, especially with new chips revealing new SNPs

    "FTDNA announced at their conference that they will be bringing back a redesigned backbone test. No exact date was given, but I expect that it will be by mid-year."
    I guess it all depends on how the U152* group will break up. If U152* breaks up in a few bigger subclades you might be able to find SNPs through Chip-based testing like Geno/Chromo. If it breaks up in alot of smaller subclades or private SNPs the current chip-based products will be pretty useless for people who are already well tested (Geno/WTY).

    I think sequencing might be the only way forward for U152*, the big question is; which company does the best sequence for the best price? FTDNA BIG Y claims to sequence 10 millions base-pairs, but we haven't seen results yet and I don't know if they also provide raw data. Full Genomes is developing entry-level products, hopefully quality sequencing for a reasonable price with raw data!

    Individual SNP testing might be useful for people who belong to an obvious cluster and want to test SNPs found in a sequence belonging to that cluster.
    Avatar:
    Roman helmet, gilded silver, 319-323 A.D. Made by Marcus Titus Lunamis. Found in 1910, Helenaveen, The Netherlands.
    Its owner belonged to the sixth cavalry unit of the Equites Stablesiani. On the right side of the helmet cap it says ‘Stablesia VI'.

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     Solothurn (11-11-2013)

  9. #7
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    Thanks mafe

    I read Thomas Krahn posted this at Full Genomes on Facebook:

    "Since I have designed this "Big Y" test by myself I can confirm that the
    enrichment assay is designed to cover about 18 Mb and I took special care
    for tweaking it so that the final coverage is in fact around 10MB. This was
    confirmed by a couple of test runs that have been done at Illumina. No such
    testing has been done in the FTDNA lab yet. However FTDNA is planning on
    doing 15000 of those tests on the HiSeq machines which means that they'll
    combine quite a lot of samples on a single run with "DNA barcoding". I am
    very worried that this will bring up a lot of crosstalk which will lead to
    confusing results across the combined samples. David Mittelmann didn't even
    get the numbers right for the WTY so I doubt that he'll be able to do the
    correct math for the Next Gen sequencing. In either case customers will be
    excited about the price and will not care about quality."

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     mafe (11-11-2013)

  11. #8
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    Just one thing to keep in mind...a very important amount of SNPs that are found using full Y-sequencing (Full Genomes or Big-Y) will never be available for single order. This happens because primers are sometimes impossible to create for some of these SNPs.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Just one thing to keep in mind...a very important amount of SNPs that are found using full Y-sequencing (Full Genomes or Big-Y) will never be available for single order. This happens because primers are sometimes impossible to create for some of these SNPs.
    Rich,
    That is very interesting. So that will mean the necessity of a test that can cover the area in question. thinking out loud here: So if we discover say 3 new L2 downstream public SNPs and 5 private ones in a sample and primers are only possible for 4 of them then the only way to get at the remaining 4 is to sequence those areas where they occur. That seems like something that FG would be looking at.

    I am on the ISOGG list and Thomas Krahn's concerns about the barcoding have been addressed by Elliot there as well. It also appears that the Big Y is having a very successful rollout in part due to the price point and great marketing. To be fair Thomas pointed out that each test may pick up SNPs not picked up in the other thus there may be a false assumption if a SNP is found one place and not another. It may turn out that the Big Y is excellent and a good investment for some but not so much for others. If money is an issue and you have a little patience I suspect that the new GENO product and the new backbone products due within the next year will catch many of the newly discovered SNPs with a certain amount of time lag. and they will most certainly have a lower price point. Individual SNP testing at a $39 price point is cost prohibitive. Better to buy a panel nut patience is needed.

    I have a 91 year old participant in my group who is also one of my most generous supporters and so I feel a certain time pressure to get as much as I can although I expect he may make it to 100 at the rate he is going. :-)

    In the long wrong competition is good and will spur better product development and downward pressure on pricing. My concern is that it not be at the cost of accuracy. I think we will have some better answers in 6 months, just like we did with GENO 2.0. If your particular sub clade is already well tested the only realistic hope is that the FG or BigY will provide new SNPs. You pay your money and take your chances. Our WTY and GENO 2 testers came up with 1 private SNP and empty thus my reluctance to encourage anyone jumping on the bandwagon too soon. But perhaps one can overthink it all. My gut simply suggests proceed with caution on the new Big Y. I have been cautious with the FG as well.....waiting to see that people were happy with the results.

    And if some of you are thinking about the cost going up that us a marketing ploy that they all use. the cost may temporarily go up but it will almost invariably go down again. Either through sale or permanent lowering of cost.
    Last edited by Kwheaton; 11-11-2013 at 02:55 PM.

  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Just one thing to keep in mind...a very important amount of SNPs that are found using full Y-sequencing (Full Genomes or Big-Y) will never be available for single order. This happens because primers are sometimes impossible to create for some of these SNPs.
    Would't "impossible" imply that traditional Sanger Y sequencing cannot fully measure the readable sequences that current NGS can? Typically primers for one SNP yield a range of base pairs of various lengths and I thought could be make to overlap with multiple primers and enough time and money. Unless you are talking about long indels or something?

    Though I would agree that many of the non-Private SNPs may never be available as individual orders.

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