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Thread: PCA of Mycenaeans, modern Greek-speakers and some relevant populations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    No Erik, the more than 150,000 figure was from the Greek Government's 'internal' census of 1910-1912. By the early 1920's the Cappadocian Orthodox, both Greek and Turkish-speaking, were about 40,000, according to the 1924 census. Many may have tried to escape registration, but equally remember that the events during and after WW1 had a profound effect.
    Oh ok my bad. So the ~150,000 figure was pre-Greek genocide years.
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    Were Mycenaeans closer to modern South Italians or to modern Cretans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caius Agrippa View Post
    Were Mycenaeans closer to modern South Italians or to modern Cretans?
    Technically-speaking, contemporary South Italians.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Technically-speaking, contemporary South Italians.
    Why is this? Is it because Cretans have absorbed more BaltoSlavic ancestry and Caucasus? Cretans seem to have been impacted by an additional wave of both.

    It wouldn't surprise me if we come to find that South Italians can be modeled as something like 80% Mycenaean, 20% Levant/North Africa. We'll have to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Why is this? Is it because Cretans have absorbed more BaltoSlavic ancestry and Caucasus? Cretans seem to have been impacted by an additional wave of both.

    It wouldn't surprise me if we come to find that South Italians can be modeled as something like 80% Mycenaean, 20% Levant/North Africa. We'll have to see.
    They can't really, not reliably enough. I've tried this before - you need additional West shifting element to "close the deal" on such admixture.

    The reason why Mycenaeans are closer to modern day South Italians than to modern day Cretans is of course the extensive Greek settlement in South Italy, while at the same time, at least IMO, the original pre-Greek Italic population (which is also responsible for the West-shift we see in all South Italians compare to Aegeans) was already a South European population, relatively closer to other South Europeans (ancient Iberians and Greeks) in that it's mainly EEF, while the ancestors of modern day Greeks (Cretans included) absorbed variable amount of Slavic admixture (~30% on the mainland, ~10% on the islands) which shifted them further away from their ancestors, then say 20% pre-Greek Italic admixture in modern day Calabrians.

    Again, this is just my take on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    The reason why Mycenaeans are closer to modern day South Italians than to modern day Cretans is of course the extensive Greek settlement in South Italy, while at the same time, at least IMO, the original pre-Greek Italic population (which is also responsible for the West-shift we see in all South Italians compare to Aegeans) was already a South European population, relatively closer to other South Europeans (ancient Iberians and Greeks) in that it's mainly EEF
    Mycenaeans are far from any modern population, those who come closest to them are South Italians simply because compared to the Cretans they are more EEF and less CHG and this doesn't imply ancient Greek ancestry in my opinion (even though we surely have it) but Crete wasn't less inhabited by ancient Greeks than southern Italy was. I don't even think that before Greeks arrived, the people of southern Italy resembled Iberians or North Italians, most likely they resembled the Mycenaeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    It wouldn't surprise me if we come to find that South Italians can be modeled as something like 80% Mycenaean, 20% Levant/North Africa. We'll have to see.
    We can't just be modeled as 80% Mycenaean and 20% MENA, you'd need to add something more northern to get closer to modern South Italians. Also, PCAs don't show them as a south-shifted version of Mycenaeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Mycenaeans are far from any modern population, those who come closest to them are South Italians simply because compared to the Cretans they are more EEF and less CHG and this doesn't imply ancient Greek ancestry in my opinion (even though we surely have it) but Crete wasn't less inhabited by ancient Greeks than southern Italy was. I don't even think that before Greeks arrived, the people of southern Italy resembled Iberians or North Italians, most likely they resembled the Mycenaeans.
    I agree with this because I've long said the same.

    With that said there is post-Neolithic MENA input in south Italy that neither Mycenaeans nor Sicily Bell Beaker can explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I don't even think that before Greeks arrived, the people of southern Italy resembled Iberians or North Italians, most likely they resembled the Mycenaeans.
    Here we go.

    Erik and Sikeliot as they saw this...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I don't even think that before Greeks arrived, the people of southern Italy resembled Iberians or North Italians, most likely they resembled the Mycenaeans.
    Of course you don't, like in another thread you didn't accept that the Levantine or North African is post-Neolithic

    Currently, the high quality North Italian Beaker samples we have, as well as the North Italian non-outlier Collegno samples we recently got, all point out to genetic continuity in North Italy.

    On the other hand, the low quality Sicilian Beaker samples we have, show higher distance from modern day Sicilians (and virtually all Italians), pointing out to dramatic genetic admixture in the South.

    But despite this fact, I won't trust these samples much. However, I'll ask you the same thing I always ask Sikeliot - why is the genetic discontinuity in South Italy matches political borders rather than any natural barrier?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Of course you don't, like in another thread you didn't accept that the Levantine or North African is post-Neolithic

    Currently, the high quality North Italian Beaker samples we have, as well as the North Italian non-outlier Collegno samples we recently got, all point out to genetic continuity in North Italy.

    On the other hand, the low quality Sicilian Beaker samples we have, show higher distance from modern day Sicilians (and virtually all Italians), pointing out to dramatic genetic admixture in the South.

    But despite this fact, I won't trust these samples much. However, I'll ask you the same thing I always ask Sikeliot - why is the genetic discontinuity in South Italy matches political borders rather than any natural barrier?
    Actually I told you in a PM a few weeks ago that I also think we have some post-Neolithic MENA so I don't know what would be so hard to "accept" for me.

    Do you realize that the only sample we have from southern Italy (I4930) is so low coverage that it is as if we had no ancient DNA to draw conclusions? The closest individuals (albeit far away) to I4930 are always the average of the four Mycenaeans followed by Greek Neolithics, and this is the reason why I said that they could be a proxy for the ancient peoples of southern Italy but I4930 doesn't even contain Steppe so how could it be informative about pre-Greek South Italy?

    Do you really think that before Greeks arrived all Italians were like the samples from Bergamo? It looks like bullshit to me. In any case, even in Northern Italy there is considerable variation and they are not all like Italian_Bergamo.

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