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Thread: PCA of Mycenaeans, modern Greek-speakers and some relevant populations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Excellent questions Erik. I think I know the exact person in London to ask. He did his PhD on the Cappadocian Greek dialect :-) But I don't think we can even begin to compare the Cappadocian Greek numbers to West Asia Minor Greeks, or to Pontians for that matter, but shall try to get back with more deatails.
    The way they plot makes me believe they might be a significant source of West Asian shifting in descendants of Magna Graecia - that is Byzantines from that region regularly migrating and moving for trade or whatever to the other parts of the Byzantine Empire, marrying locals and passing along their substantial West Asian admixture.

    I mean if in the Collegno samples, as Davidski found out, there were Cretan Greeks (or Aegean Greeks), there's no reason to assume that Cappadocian or Cappadocian-like Greeks with similar genetic admixture didn't arrive all the way to South Italy and Sicily as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    The way they plot makes me believe they might be a significant source of West Asian shifting in descendants of Magna Graecia - that is Byzantines from that region regularly migrating and moving for trade or whatever to the other parts of the Byzantine Empire, marrying locals and passing along their substantial West Asian admixture.

    I mean if in the Collegno samples, as Davidski found out, there were Cretan Greeks (or Aegean Greeks), there's no reason to assume that Cappadocian or Cappadocian-like Greeks with similar genetic admixture didn't arrive all the way to South Italy and Sicily as well.
    Precisely- or Cypriots for that matter, without the additional Levantine admixture that we know occurred from the Byzantine to the Medieval period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    The way they plot makes me believe they might be a significant source of West Asian shifting in descendants of Magna Graecia - that is Byzantines from that region regularly migrating and moving for trade or whatever to the other parts of the Byzantine Empire, marrying locals and passing along their substantial West Asian admixture.

    I mean if in the Collegno samples, as Davidski found out, there were Cretan Greeks (or Aegean Greeks), there's no reason to assume that Cappadocian or Cappadocian-like Greeks with similar genetic admixture didn't arrive all the way to South Italy and Sicily as well.
    Byzantine Sicily saw Enna as a stronghold against the Arabs... Enna has one of the highest Caucasus inputs in Sicily in Sarno et al. Could be Cappadoccian Greek input there?

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    not sure if already discussed but stumbled over this paper from last year (Y-Chromosome)
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474
    features a good collection of Y haplogroups from various pops in S7Table;

    Despite limited haplotype sharing, a population shows remarkable genetic affinity with Cypriots (both GCy and TCy), with evidence of non-significant genetic differentiation, indicating shared paternal ancestry in the more distant past; namely Calabrian Italians. It should be noted however that the Calabrian samples used in the current analysis were relatively small (n = 30 comparative dataset, n = 74 YHRD) and thus these results should be interpreted with caution.

    If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations.

    The separation of Cypriots from Southeast European Mediterranean populations included in our analysis is brought about by the much lower frequency in the former of haplogroups I2, R1a and R1b. South Italians in particular, although relatively low in haplogroups I2 and R1a, have a substantial proportion of haplogroup R1b (Fig 3). This difference suggests that although Calabrian Italians share primarily common paternal genetic roots with Cypriots, there has been an influx of populations high in R1b, which affected South Italy much more than Cyprus


    they do not however differentiate R1b into its subclades but acc to 2014 sarno et al TableS2 (n110) the most common R1b clade is U152(maj L2+) the source of U152 in italy is still n.d. so maybe the influx into calabria could be post-byzantine high-middle-ages;
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I have to wonder - how big was the Cappadocian Greek population? Was it in anyway comparable to the West Anatolian Greek population numbers? If so - is it known where most of them have been settled in Greece? Or chose to settle? It might be worth comparing results from specific locations where most of them settled and with the samples we have, to see any effect they might have had on the surrounding Greek population that they settled among.
    I've now managed to do a little digging and it's clear that the Cappadocian Greeks were far fewer in number than the large Greek communities in western Asia Minor, or the Pontic community around the north east Black Sea region.

    According to a 1928 Greek census, Greece had become the home to over 1,200,000 Greek refugees from Turkey (which may be an underestimate), but most of these people came from the Pontus and western Asia Minor. According to Mark Janse, an expert on the region, "At the time of the exchange, three different Asia Minor Greek dialects were spoken in Cappadocia: Cappadocian, Farasiot and Pontic. According to a 1924 census, 44% of the Cappadocians (c. 17,530) spoke Cappadocian, 56% (c. 22,350) Turkish." We are accordingly dealing with over 40,000 Cappadocian Orthodox Christians, over half of whom were Turkish-speaking. Many others would have melted into the surrounding Muslim population through Islamization or a period of crypto-Christianity. Some as I mentioned earlier, escaped deportation by becoming members of a newly formed 'Turkish Orthodox Church'.

    Nevertheless, earlier Greek statistics show Cappadocian numbers to have been much larger. Alexis Alexandris conducted extensive research at the archives of the Greek Foreign Ministry. Between 1910 and 1912, the Greek Government had commissioned a full census of the Greek Orthodox population of Anatolia (but excluding areas which fell under the authority of Antioch, i.e. in the deep southeast). Alexandris uncovered diplomatic documents revealing that in the greater Cappadocia area, there were 74,539 Rum in the Vilayet of Konya, and 85,242 Rum in the Vilayet of Ankara, that is to say, nearly 160,000 co-religionists. The figures are only a quarter of this by 1924. Of course, the very dark decade of the 1910s was to follow.



    Paschalis Kitromilides (one of the most renowned historians of the Greek Enlightenment) together with Alexis Alexandris say the following in a 1984 co-written paper about the Asia Minor interior:

    "the natural features of the (Cappadocia) region turned it into a closed and self-contained world which preserved over time the essential characteristics of its social cohesion and cultural particularity.

    In the area of central and southern Anatolia the Christian Orthodox presence in modern times was quantitatively meagre but historically significant and ethnographically uniquely interesting. If the dense Greek settlements of the western regions of the peninsula had been by and large the product of relatively recent immigration, the sparse Orthodox communities, Greek speaking or Turkish speaking, of the interior of Asia Minor, constituted direct survivals from the medieval Byzantine presence in the region. The most incontrovertible sign of the Byzantine origin of the local population, especially in Cappadocia and Lycaonia, was offered by the highly peculiar Greek idioms spoken in some of those communities, which bore unmistakable resemblance to Medieval Greek despite the heavy Turkish influence, especially in diction."

    Btw, not all chose to settle in Greece and some accepted safe passage from France to travel to the French Protectorate of Greater Syria. I would imagine that many just inter-married with local Arabic-speaking Orthodox Christians and are now totally assimilated. Some, including those who went to Greece, would have gone on to the New World.
    Last edited by Andrewid; 11-14-2018 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    not sure if already discussed but stumbled over this paper from last year (Y-Chromosome)
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474
    features a good collection of Y haplogroups from various pops in S7Table;

    Despite limited haplotype sharing, a population shows remarkable genetic affinity with Cypriots (both GCy and TCy), with evidence of non-significant genetic differentiation, indicating shared paternal ancestry in the more distant past; namely Calabrian Italians. It should be noted however that the Calabrian samples used in the current analysis were relatively small (n = 30 comparative dataset, n = 74 YHRD) and thus these results should be interpreted with caution.

    If the high genetic affinity observed between Cypriots and Calabrian Italians is assumed to be true, it could be explained by the fact that South Italy has been a part of the ancient Greek world for centuries (Magna Graecia) and Calabria in particular has been settled by Achaean Greeks during the 8th and 7th cent. B.C [as Cyprus was, a few centuries back[67]]. Thus the high genetic affinity between Calabrians and Cypriots could be a result of a common ancient Greek (Achaean) genetic contribution to both populations.

    The separation of Cypriots from Southeast European Mediterranean populations included in our analysis is brought about by the much lower frequency in the former of haplogroups I2, R1a and R1b. South Italians in particular, although relatively low in haplogroups I2 and R1a, have a substantial proportion of haplogroup R1b (Fig 3). This difference suggests that although Calabrian Italians share primarily common paternal genetic roots with Cypriots, there has been an influx of populations high in R1b, which affected South Italy much more than Cyprus


    they do not however differentiate R1b into its subclades but acc to 2014 sarno et al TableS2 (n110) the most common R1b clade is U152(maj L2+) the source of U152 in italy is still n.d. so maybe the influx into calabria could be post-byzantine high-middle-ages;
    I would also like to see a y-dna comparison between Albanians since there has been understandable speculation about the connection between the Dardanian "Galabrii" tribe and Calabrians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    The way they plot makes me believe they might be a significant source of West Asian shifting in descendants of Magna Graecia - that is Byzantines from that region regularly migrating and moving for trade or whatever to the other parts of the Byzantine Empire, marrying locals and passing along their substantial West Asian admixture.

    I mean if in the Collegno samples, as Davidski found out, there were Cretan Greeks (or Aegean Greeks), there's no reason to assume that Cappadocian or Cappadocian-like Greeks with similar genetic admixture didn't arrive all the way to South Italy and Sicily as well.
    Here's my question. Which is a more likely explanation to you of Levantine admixture in eastern Sicily--

    A. Migration from western Sicily eastward of mixed Phoenician-Greek-Italic peoples and a homogenization of the island away from Levantine remaining strictly in the west, OR

    B. Anatolian/Cappadoccian/Antioch Greeks in eastern Sicily proxying Phoenician admixture

    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    I've now managed to do a little digging and it's clear that the Cappadocian Greeks were far fewer in number than the large Greek communities in western Asia Minor, or the Pontic community around the north east Black Sea region.

    According to a 1928 Greek census, Greece had become the home to over 1,200,000 Greek refugees from Turkey (which may be an underestimate), but most of these people came from the Pontus and western Asia Minor. According to Mark Janse, an expert on the region, "At the time of the exchange, three different Asia Minor Greek dialects were spoken in Cappadocia: Cappadocian, Farasiot and Pontic. According to a 1924 census, 44% of the Cappadocians (c. 17,530) spoke Cappadocian, 56% (c. 22,350) Turkish." We are accordingly dealing with over 40,000 Cappadocian Orthodox Christians, over half of whom were Turkish-speaking. Many others would have melted into the surrounding Muslim population through Islamization or a period of crypto-Christianity. Some as I mentioned earlier, escaped deportation by becoming members of a newly formed 'Turkish Orthodox Church'.

    Nevertheless, earlier Greek statistics show Cappadocian numbers to have been much larger. Alexis Alexandris conducted extensive research at the archives of the Greek Foreign Ministry. Between 1910 and 1912, the Greek Government had commissioned a full census of the Greek Orthodox population of Anatolia (but excluding areas which fell under the authority of Antioch, i.e. in the deep southeast). Alexandris uncovered diplomatic documents revealing that in the greater Cappadocia area, there were 74,539 Rum in the Vilayet of Konya, and 85,242 Rum in the Vilayet of Ankara, that is to say, nearly 160,000 co-religionists. The figures are only a quarter of this by 1924. Of course, the very dark decade of the 1910s was to follow.



    Paschalis Kitromilides (one of the most renowned historians of the Greek Enlightenment) together with Alexis Alexandris say the following in a 1984 co-written paper about the Asia Minor interior:

    "the natural features of the (Cappadocia) region turned it into a closed and self-contained world which preserved over time the essential characteristics of its social cohesion and cultural particularity.

    In the area of central and southern Anatolia the Christian Orthodox presence in modern times was quantitatively meagre but historically significant and ethnographically uniquely interesting. If the dense Greek settlements of the western regions of the peninsula had been by and large the product of relatively recent immigration, the sparse Orthodox communities, Greek speaking or Turkish speaking, of the interior of Asia Minor, constituted direct survivals from the medieval Byzantine presence in the region. The most incontrovertible sign of the Byzantine origin of the local population, especially in Cappadocia and Lycaonia, was offered by the highly peculiar Greek idioms spoken in some of those communities, which bore unmistakable resemblance to Medieval Greek despite the heavy Turkish influence, especially in diction."

    Btw, not all chose to settle in Greece and some accepted safe passage from France to travel to the French Protectorate of Greater Syria. I would imagine that many just inter-married with local Arabic-speaking Orthodox Christians and are now totally assimilated. Some, including those who went to Greece, would have gone on to the New World.
    Interesting... so we are talking about ~150,000 before the population exchange. Indeed, not as big as the Pontic Greek or West Anatolian Greek populations, but nevertheless - pretty significant population.

    Thank you so much for bringing this info.

    Here's my question. Which is a more likely explanation to you of Levantine admixture in eastern Sicily--

    A. Migration from western Sicily eastward of mixed Phoenician-Greek-Italic peoples and a homogenization of the island away from Levantine remaining strictly in the west, OR

    B. Anatolian/Cappadoccian/Antioch Greeks in eastern Sicily proxying Phoenician admixture
    Both, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Both, IMO.
    And I think a similar process happened with Greek input, which gradually filtered east.

    Something I was meaning to ask. Do we have any data on Greeks from Egypt? Are they genetically similar to mainland Greeks? Sicilians/south Italians/Aegeans? Or something else entirely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Interesting... so we are talking about ~150,000 before the population exchange. Indeed, not as big as the Pontic Greek or West Anatolian Greek populations, but nevertheless - pretty significant population.

    Thank you so much for bringing this info.



    No Erik, the more than 150,000 figure was from the Greek Government's 'internal' census of 1910-1912. By the early 1920's the Cappadocian Orthodox, both Greek and Turkish-speaking, were about 40,000, according to the 1924 census. Many may have tried to escape registration, but equally remember that the events during and after WW1 had a profound effect.

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