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Thread: Pleistocene Siberian Genomes / Ancient North Siberians (Sikora et al)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Cheers thanks. Yep %
    Here is some interesting thing I noticed. Native Americans are around 30-40% ANE, so if ANE is around 30% to 1/3 East Eurasian and the rest West Eurasian, then Native Americans are around 20-28% ancient West Eurasian which would make them be as Western shifted as some Turkic Central Asians such as Altaian and Kyrgyz. I heard somewhere that West Eurasian-ness of ANE is similar to Upper Paleolithic Europeans.

    Quoting from what I asked from Kale on message:

    If ANE is 100% West Eurasian, Native Americans = 30-40% West Eurasian
    If ANE is 75% West Eurasian, Native Americans = 22.5-30% West Eurasian
    Whichever theory is correct, 30% is within both ranges
    Does this means Mestizo are genetically more West Eurasian than we thought as Native Americans already have some amount of archaic West Eurasian-related admix from MA1/AG3?
    Last edited by Tsakhur; 01-30-2019 at 01:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsakhur View Post
    Here is some interesting thing I noticed. Native Americans are around 30-40% ANE, so if ANE is around 30% to 1/3 East Eurasian and the rest West Eurasian, then Native Americans are around 20-28% ancient West Eurasian which would make them be as Western shifted as some Turkic Central Asians such as Altaian and Kyrgyz. I heard somewhere that West Eurasian-ness of ANE is similar to Upper Paleolithic Europeans.

    Quoting from what I asked from Kale on message:



    Does this means Mestizo are genetically more West Eurasian than we thought as Native Americans already have some amount of archaic West Eurasian-related admix from MA1/AG3?
    and so would the Karitiana

    IMO its hard to define ANE as 'West Eurasian' or Western shifted when for example modern Norwegians are 24% Basal and 58% Villabruna related and only 18% ANE

    I prefer the term North (North East?) Eurasian. Which was only really in crazy numbers in Karelia/Yamna and ancient Amerindians (Clovis) and Iran N.

    Among moderns high levels in Amerindians (Karitiana) and heavy Iran N derived groups like the Kalash (40%+), and these groups are not West Eurasian based on their distance to modern West Eurasians IMO
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-30-2019 at 11:38 PM.

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    -duplicate-

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    This might be a very interesting paper with respect to the origin of the EWE part of the Yana river ANS.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-019-09129-w

    Quote Originally Posted by Feng Li et al
    Blade assemblages with both Levallois and prismatic methods were created around 46–33 ka at Shuidonggou. This signals the appearance of an early Upper Paleolithic with assemblage characteristics similar to those found in Western Eurasia. The distribution of this lithic industry was limited to the northern part of North China. Sites in Mongolia and the Siberian Altai contain similar lithic technology, and they are generally earlier (Derevianko 2011; Li, Kuhn et al. 2014; Li, Chen et al. 2016; Zwyns et al. 2014). For this reason, researchers have proposed that the macro-blade industry appeared in Shuidonggou as a result of technological diffusion (Brantingham et al. 2001; Peng, Wang and Gao 2014) or population dispersal from Mongolia and/or the Altai (Li, Kuhn et al. 2014; Li, Chen et al. 2016).
    46 ka is *really* early but similar datings starting to emerge from Europa. However, 45 ka we had Ust'Ishim in Western Siberia, with no real affinity to either West or East Eurasians. Also, the affinity shared between GoyetQ116 and Tianyuan might be of interest here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feng Li et al
    Simple core and flake technology with specific technological innovations appeared in the SDG area at around 33 ka and persisted until 27 ka. There may be hints of this kind of technology in earlier low-density, undated deposits at SDG 2 (AL5b and AL6). Simple core-flake assemblages had been present in North China since the early Pleistocene (Schick et al. 1991; Dennell 2008; Gao 2013; Wang 2005; Zhang 1990). They have usually been described as Mode 1 technology, following the scheme proposed by G. Clark (1969). Their persistence is often considered evidence of continuous evolution within the Chinese Paleolithic, perhaps even continuity from Homo erectus to Homo sapiens (e.g., Gao 2014; Wu and Xu 2016).
    Compare to the Yana river paper:

    The earliest, most secure archaeological evidence of human occupation of the regioncomes from the artefact-rich, high-latitude (~70 N) Yana RHS site dated to ~31.6 kya(Figure 1), though there are recently-discovered traces of an even earlier human presence4,6.Yana RHS yielded a flake-based stone tool industry and highly developed bone and ivory artefacts, reminiscent of technologies seen in the Eurasian Upper Palaeolithic (UP), and southern Siberia (Extended Data Fig. 1)5,7.
    Last edited by epoch; 05-29-2019 at 07:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    46 ka is *really* early but similar datings starting to emerge from Europa. However, 45 ka we had Ust'Ishim in Western Siberia, with no real affinity to either West or East Eurasians. Also, the affinity shared between GoyetQ116 and Tianyuan might be of interest here.
    Actually Ust_Ishim is about 43 thousands years old. And if the qpgraphs I've been working on are correct, Ust_Ishim already has the Goyet mix, so no conflict there
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Actually Ust_Ishim is about 43 thousands years old. And if the qpgraphs I've been working on are correct, Ust_Ishim already has the Goyet mix, so no conflict there
    Did you see that the Dzudzuana paper modeled Kostenki14 successfully as 15% Ust'Ishim + the rest Vestonice16? Sup Info table S3.2

    Target = Kostenki14, Pop1: Ust_Ishim Pop2: Vestonice16, P = 0.066, Pop1 = 0.16, Pop2 = 0.84, error bars: 0.032 0.032

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Actually Ust_Ishim is about 43 thousands years old. And if the qpgraphs I've been working on are correct, Ust_Ishim already has the Goyet mix, so no conflict there
    The Fu paper had Ust as "46,880–43,210 cal BP (95.4% probability)" or "45,770–44,010 cal BP (68.2% probability)"

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    Hmmm, that would be interesting to try in qpgraph... a cline going from WHG(-ANE) > Vestonice16 > Sunghir > Kostenki14 > Ust_Ishim
    I still think proto-Goyet into East-Eurasian root is the simplest explanation for Goyet's weirdness though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Hmmm, that would be interesting to try in qpgraph... a cline going from WHG(-ANE) > Vestonice16 > Sunghir > Kostenki14 > Ust_Ishim
    I still think proto-Goyet into East-Eurasian root is the simplest explanation for Goyet's weirdness though.
    How would you explain the lack of affinity of non-Goyet 116 ancient Europeans to Tianyuan if Goyet 116 -> Tianyuan?

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Did you see that the Dzudzuana paper modeled Kostenki14 successfully as 15% Ust'Ishim + the rest Vestonice16? Sup Info table S3.2

    Target = Kostenki14, Pop1: Ust_Ishim Pop2: Vestonice16, P = 0.066, Pop1 = 0.16, Pop2 = 0.84, error bars: 0.032 0.032
    In that case Ust-Ishim would be closer to East Eurasians if we discount admixture into West Eurasians.. That would fit with his NRY lineage, K2a/NO*.
    Last edited by ren; 06-14-2019 at 02:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ren View Post
    How would you explain the lack of affinity of non-Goyet 116 ancient Europeans to Tianyuan if Goyet 116 -> Tianyuan?
    non-Goyet paleo-Europeans also have less affinity to all other East Eurasians (including Ust_Ishim), no contradiction.
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