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Thread: Pleistocene Siberian Genomes / Ancient North Siberians (Sikora et al)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprfls View Post
    Yes, that's what it could mean. See mtDNA X2 -- found in Iran_N around 8,000 BC and many subsequent CHG-rich populations, and also a distinct branch in Kennewick Man and many modern Native Americans.
    Y-happlogroups tell us the same. Q-happlogroup, that is common for paleosiberians can be also found in the Middle East/Iran/India (and was found in pre-indoeuropean Iran, for example). There are some old branches of Q-happlogroup that have definitely originated in Middle East/Iran/India.
    Paleosiberian Malta boy was R*, and we know that R2 and not-indoeuropean branches of R1(R1a-not-M417 and R1b-not-M269) are mostly found in India/Iran/Middle East.

    It looks like 25-30 ky bp there was a mass migration between these two regions.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ataneojr1 View Post
    The AETA or Agta tribe of the PHILIPPINES are the only group that shows ydna Basal P* (28%), P1* and the very rare P2 found together along with significant levels of K2b1. The Timorese of Indonesia shows 10% of males have Y dna P*.
    P is a happlogroup that is 44 ky years old (according to Y-full).
    This is close to Out-of-Africa moment (we should not forget, happlogroup age estimations have some margin of error).

    When we are talking about a happlogroup that is as old as Out-of-Africa event, we should not be surprised to find it in ANY population. Hope soon we will know more about branches of P* that are common in some areas of Phillipines/Indonesia/East Timor. I am ready to bet that all P* of South-Eastern Asian isles belong to a different branch (or different branches) of P, not the same branch as 32kbp Yana males had.

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    Just to follow-up on what I said earlier...modifying a bit to include all possible combinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    1) Outgroup Papuan/Australian Onge East-Asian = 0
    2) Outgroup Papuan/Australian Tianyuan East-Asian = 0
    3) Outgroup Papuan/Australian Onge Tianyuan = 0
    4) Outgroup Onge Papuan/Australian(adjusting for excess Denisovan) East-Asian = 0
    5) Outgroup Onge Tianyuan East-Asian = +
    6) Outgroup Onge Papuan/Australian(adjusting for excess Denisovan) Tianyuan = -
    7) Outgroup Tianyuan Onge East-Asian = +
    8) Outgroup Tianyuan Papuan/Australian(adjusting for excess Denisovan) East-Asian = +
    9) Outgroup Tianyuan Onge Papuan/Australian(adjusting for excess Denisovan) = 0
    10) Outgroup East-Asian Papuan/Australian(adjusting for excess Denisovan) Onge = 0
    11) Outgroup East-Asian Tianyuan Onge = 0
    12) Outgroup East-Asian Papuan/Australian(adjusting for excess Denisovan) Tianyuan = 0
    Assuming Tianyuan is Proto-East-Asian or somehow contributes largely to East-Asians to the exclusion of others...
    Scenario1: If Onge were Oceanian+East-Asian we should see 1+3+9 be negative and 10 be positive
    Scenario2: If East-Asians were Tianyuan+Onge we should see... 4+10+12 be positive

    Thinking back to something I can't remember the source, that suggested Papuans/Australians were a mixture of some Denisovan-rich East-Eurasian branch & something Onge-like...
    If East-Eurasians split into two branches, 1) Onge 2) Oceanian&East-Asian... then an Onge sister-clade contributes to both Oceanians & East-Asians, then that fails condition 9

    If we then put a mixture from East-Asians into Onge, I think that should account for everything, granted with a delicate balancing act of drift lengths.
    Could someone give this a spin in qpgraph? (with Denisova added for Oceanians of course)
    EE.png
    Last edited by Kale; 11-04-2018 at 06:27 AM.
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    This is a very important paper. For those linking it to other papers be warned there appears to be two sites called Ust Belaya one by lake Baikal and the other from the Pavel Flegontov Paleo-Eskimo genetic legacy across North America paper which is in the extreme north east. The samples from both places in the Bronze age seem to plot in a similar area of PCA space
    Last edited by Helen; 11-04-2018 at 02:03 PM. Reason: alter spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    P is a happlogroup that is 44 ky years old (according to Y-full).
    This is close to Out-of-Africa moment (we should not forget, happlogroup age estimations have some margin of error).

    When we are talking about a happlogroup that is as old as Out-of-Africa event, we should not be surprised to find it in ANY population. Hope soon we will know more about branches of P* that are common in some areas of Phillipines/Indonesia/East Timor. I am ready to bet that all P* of South-Eastern Asian isles belong to a different branch (or different branches) of P, not the same branch as 32kbp Yana males had.
    All SEA P* do belong to a different branch that's why they are designated P*, but all SEA P1 share many mutations with the Yana P1.
    P1 is just one of the twigs of P, to which all Q and R happen to belong.
    A population like the Aeta will have had many types of P, only one of which becomes P1 and populates Eurasia.
    Phylogenitically each one of those Aeta P are as signification as P1, though the former may just be handful each, while the latter has a billion descendants today.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    All SEA P* do belong to a different branch that's why they are designated P*, but all SEA P1 share many mutations with the Yana P1.
    P1 is just one of the twigs of P, to which all Q and R happen to belong.
    A population like the Aeta will have had many types of P, only one of which becomes P1 and populates Eurasia.
    Phylogenitically each one of those Aeta P are as signification as P1, though the former may just be handful each, while the latter has a billion descendants today.
    Do we know anything about SEA P* other than it is xP1? If all SEA P* belongs to a single clade with a very recent MRCA, that's a lot different than if there are a vast plurality of unique branches differentially related to P1.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Do we know anything about SEA P* other than it is xP1? If all SEA P* belongs to a single clade with a very recent MRCA, that's a lot different than if there are a vast plurality of unique branches differentially related to P1.
    SE Asia also has P1.
    In addition, SE Asia has many Ps that are P295(xP27), P295+P27+(xM45).
    Plus the parallel branch (MS) to P331xP295 is present, as well as branches parallel to P331, such as P261, P402, & M214.

    P331 to P-P295 ~2000 years. TMCRA of P295 and P27 about 12000 years. So about 12k years of the P lineage and about 14K years of PMS lineage is in SE Asia before P1.

    EDIT:
    Not to forget P2-B253
    P2-B253 was identified in the Philippines (Agtas)
    https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpP.html
    Last edited by parasar; 11-05-2018 at 09:09 PM.

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    If all SEA P* belongs to a single clade with a very recent MRCA, that's a lot different than if there are a vast plurality of unique branches differentially related to P1.
    I also expected that all the SE Asian P* belong to a single clade with a recent MRCA, but this is not the case.
    Here is the article
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2014106#t1
    here is the map from article:
    ejhg2014106f2.jpg

    This work shows a number of P* and various branches of K (which is a parent haplogroup for P) are widespread in Indonesia/Philippines.
    It looks like P1 originated somewhere in South-East Asia and then expanded to Siberia.
    Last edited by artemv; 11-05-2018 at 07:26 PM.

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    I checked the Haplogroup P (Y-DNA) page on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_(Y-DNA)). It is said that there is 35% of P1 (P-M45) among Nivkh males. Is that line close to Yana P1? Nivkh live on the Sakhalin Island and it is not so terribly far away from the Yana river.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I checked the Haplogroup P (Y-DNA) page on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_(Y-DNA)). It is said that there is 35% of P1 (P-M45) among Nivkh males. Is that line close to Yana P1? Nivkh live on the Sakhalin Island and it is not so terribly far away from the Yana river.
    Those are probably Q(xM3)
    Of all the countries, this is possibly the most beautiful. All that is beautiful and can be rarely seen in
    other countries can be seen everywhere here... Here live the people who wear the cleanest clothes and prepare the
    most flavorful dishes... Of all of Godís servants, the local people are the most compassionate and merciful...

    Ibn Battuta about Asia Minor 1333CE

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