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Thread: Pleistocene Siberian Genomes / Ancient North Siberians (Sikora et al)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I checked the Haplogroup P (Y-DNA) page on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_(Y-DNA)). It is said that there is 35% of P1 (P-M45) among Nivkh males. Is that line close to Yana P1? Nivkh live on the Sakhalin Island and it is not so terribly far away from the Yana river.
    Yes.
    Almost everyone who is P (all Q and all R) in the world outside SE Asia is from that same one twig of P.

    Yana 1
    L138; P
    P237/PF5873; P
    L721/PF6020; P
    P243/PF5874; P
    F1857/ P337/Page83/PF5901; P & H-PF6263
    L779/PF5907/YSC0000251; P & H-PF6263
    P228/PF5927; P & H-PF6263
    P239/PF5930; P & H-PF6263
    P281/PF5941; P & H-PF6263
    M45/PF5962; P & H-PF6263
    L768/PF5976/YSC0000274; P & H-PF6263
    L471/PF5989; P


    Yana 2
    L138;
    P237/PF5873;
    L721/PF6020;
    P243/PF5874;
    F1857/ P337/Page83/PF5901;
    L779/PF5907/YSC0000251;
    P228/PF5927;
    P239/PF5930;
    P281/PF5941;
    M45/PF5962;
    L768/PF5976/YSC0000274;
    L471/PF5989;
    and additional
    P284; P & H-PF6263





    H-PF6263 is likely an error by YFull as there can’t be so many common SNPs on two separate lines (& just the same two separate lines). Possible R1b and not H.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I checked the Haplogroup P (Y-DNA) page on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_(Y-DNA)). It is said that there is 35% of P1 (P-M45) among Nivkh males. Is that line close to Yana P1? Nivkh live on the Sakhalin Island and it is not so terribly far away from the Yana river.
    You can see in wikipedia that these are results from 2001. There was no ISOGG tree at that time, humanity knew very little about the Y-happlogroup tree at a time.
    They have only checked, that those 35% where P-M45(not Q-M3, not M17(M17 is R1a1a )).
    This might have been R2,R1b,R1a-not R1a1a or Q-not-M3 (last case is the most likely).
    You can see that later tests did not show any surprising haplogroups.

    We should careful about genetic test made in early 2000s.

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  5. #23
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    Yes, but if the Nivkh P-M45 haplotype is available somewhere, it would be very useful to confirm what it is in modern terms.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    A basal U2'3'4'7'8'9 (since earlier K14 is basal U2), and a basal or even ancestral P1.

    Some old stuff:
    Your predictions seems be well substantiated

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Yes, but if the Nivkh P-M45 haplotype is available somewhere, it would be very useful to confirm what it is in modern terms.
    On the wikipedia page there is a link to later results - 2012 (but it is only for Nivkhs living on the Sakhalin island, although they live on the continent also).
    http://www.medgenetics.ru/UserFile/F...%20Kharkov.pdf
    The article is in Russian, but I will post here results for Nivkh:
    C3* - 71%
    D - 5,8%
    N1c1 - 1,8%
    O* - 3,8%
    O2 - 1,9%
    O3a* - 7,7%
    QxM346 - 7,7%

    It looks like those P where QxM346, because there are no other P results found in this investigation.
    Unfortunately there is no detailed information about markers tested.

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  11. #26
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    P1* that far north? Looks like Davidski predictions about basal R* and Q* coming from an Northern Source Was substantiated
    Last edited by Diictodon; 11-06-2018 at 09:55 PM.

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    Another interesting finding from the paper is the presence of BuE (Basal Eurasian) in EHG in the qpGraph. It seems that the non-Basal part of CHG contributed 12% to MA-1, while EHG has 22% CHG admixture. So that would make CHG around 16.2 actual CHG, around 52% Ancient North Siberian related (Yana1/2), 24% Villabruna like HG related and only 7% Basal.
    Technically speaking this make CHG more crown Eurasian than Previously thought, right? After all, we have no detectable BuE in Malta and the newly sequenced Yana1 and Yana2 aDNA.

  13. #28
    "In our fitted admixture graph, AASI, Onge, and AncientPapuan (a hypothesized ancestral population to modern Papuans, prior to Denisovan admixture) are a clade with respect to Nicobarese, representing the East Eurasian ancestry that plausibly dispersed with the Austroasiatic language expansion, and indigenous Chinese groups. The split between AASI, Onge, AncientPapuan is modeled as nearly a trifurcation. It seems probable that the split between AASI and AncientPapuan occurred prior to modern humans reaching Sahul (the ancient continent uniting Australia and New Guinea). Radiocarbon dating shows this is unlikely to be much more recently than 47,000 years before present."
    Haplogroup D-M174's migration pattern fits in well with the scenario proposed by Chaubey et al. (2011), which is found at high frequency among populations in Tibet and the Andaman Islands, and at moderate frequencies among indigenous Chinese tribes. Haplogroup D-M55, which is closely associated with the Jomon and Ainu, was born in Japan 38,000-37,000 years before present, around 10,000 years after the split between AASI and AncientPapuan.





    It is said that there is 35% of P1 (P-M45) among Nivkh males. Is that line close to Yana P1? Nivkh live on the Sakhalin Island and it is not so terribly far away from the Yana river.
    Derenko et al. (2005) found that Haplogroup P* was present in the majority of Siberian samples, reaching its highest frequency in Tuvinians (35.4%). Native Siberian tribes such as the Nivkh and Tuvinians may have inherited this Ancient North Siberian (ANS) haplogroup from their ancient Siberian ancestors related to Yana individuals, assuming the region's genetic continuity. But their mtDNA haplogroups are almost entirely replaced by East Asian lineages today due to later migrations as Yana RHS individuals' mitochondrial haplogroup U is rarely detected in modern Siberians (4-5%).

    Fifteen different haplogroups of the 18 possible (Fig.2)
    were found in Siberia (Table 1). The most frequent
    haplogroups, present at frequencies greater than 10%
    across South Siberia, were C, R1a1, N3, and P*. Haplogroups C and R1a1 were common in all populations.
    The highest frequencies of haplogroup C were
    present in Mongolic-speaking Buryats (63.9%), Kalmyks
    (70.6%), and Mongolians (57.4%) as well as in
    Tungus-speaking Evenks (40%). In other Siberian
    populations it was found at low or moderate frequencies
    (up to 17.6%). The Shors and Teleuts had the
    highest frequency of haplogroup R1a1 (58.8% and
    55.3%, respectively), and this haplogroup generally was
    more frequent in populations from Altai and eastern
    Sayan region than in the adjacent areas, although it is
    rather high in Sojots (23.5%) from Baikal region and
    Evenks (14.0%) from Central Siberia. Haplogroup
    R1a1, which is common in Central and Eastern Europe
    as well as in some populations of Western and Central
    Asia, is prevalent also in the Russian sample studied
    (48.3%). Haplogroup P* was present in the majority of
    Siberian samples, except for the Evenks and Teleuts,
    reaching its highest frequency in Tuvinians (35.4%).
    The Teleuts, in turn, together with Shors and Tofalars
    had a high frequency of haplogroup R1* (12.8, 19.6,
    and 12.5%, respectively), which was found in other
    Siberian populations at low frequencies (up to 7.6%).
    Haplogroups N3 and N*, widespread in Siberia (Karafet
    et al. 1999; 2002; Derenko et al. 2002) and
    northern Eurasia (Zerjal et al. 1997) and rarely observed
    in Central Asia (Zerjal et a. 2002), were also
    frequent in South Siberian populations studied here.
    http://www.zgms.cm.umk.pl/prace/591-604.pdf
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 11-07-2018 at 05:50 AM.
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I think this is probably right..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    Derenko et al. (2005) found that Haplogroup P* was present in the majority of Siberian samples, reaching its highest frequency in Tuvinians (35.4%).
    Again, we should be careful with old results.
    You can see that in this article 2,2% of Russians have P* - this alone is enough to understand that in this work they use some old definition of P*. You can also note, that they have not found any Q Haplogroup in Siberia(!).

    So, tets return to her article and check the Materials and methods paragraph.
    You can see there:
    The Y-SNP haplogroup nomenclature used here is according to the recommendations of the Y Chromosome Consortium (2002).

    You can also see the definition of P* (on Fig. 2): P*(xQ3,R1).
    I went to the recommendations of the Y Chromosome Consortium (2002) and found out that Q3 means M3(!!) - a major Q branch of native Americans (not found in Siberia).
    That is it: all the Siberian branches of Q are labeled as P* in this article.
    P* as we define it now has not been found in Siberia jet.
    Last edited by artemv; 11-07-2018 at 03:14 PM.

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