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Thread: Mike Hammer goes for post-Neolithic entry of R into Europe

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    Mike Hammer goes for post-Neolithic entry of R into Europe

    I'm starting a separate thread for this, because it is a dramatic shift of view by a significant figure. Some of the details have already been posted on other threads, but this one I suggest could collate the various reports of his presentation at the 2013 Family Tree DNA Conference.

    Roberta Estes gives details on her blog, with some slides: http://dna-explained.com/2013/11/12/...ference-day-2/

    She covers his shift of ground on the age of R1b in Europe:

    Previous studies indicate that haplogroup R has a Paleolithic origin, but 2 recent studies agree that this haplogroup has a more recent origin in Europe – the Neolithic but disagree about the timing of the expansion. The first study, Joblin’s study in 2010, argued that geographic diversity is explained by single Near East source via Anatolia. It conclude that the Y of Mesolithic hunger-gatherers were nearly replaced by those of incoming farmers. In the most recent study by Busby in 2012 is the largest study and concludes that there is no diversity in the mapping of R SNP markers so they could not date lineage and expansion. They did find that most basic structure of R tree did come from the near east. They looked at P311 as marker for expansion into Europe, wherever it was. Hammer says that in his opinion, he thought that if P311 is so frequent and widespread in Europe it must have been there a long time. However, it appears that he and most everyone else, was wrong.

    The hypothesis to be tested is if P311 originated prior to the Neolithic wave, it would predict higher diversity it the near east, closer to the origins of agriculture. If P311 originated after the expansion, would be able to see it migrate across Europe and it would have had to replace an existing population.

    Because we now have sequences the DNA of about 40 ancient DNA specimens, Michael turned to the ancient DNA literature....This evidence supports a recent spread of haplogroup R lineages in western Europe about 5K years ago. This also supports evidence that P311 moved into Europe after the Neolithic agricultural transition and nearly displaced the previously existing western European Neolithic Y, which appears to be G2a.
    Hammer will post all his slides, which will be available through a link on the GAP page at FTDNA by the end of the week.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 11-12-2013 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Tried to fix title

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    Brad Larkin blogged faster http://www.surnamedna.com/?p=950

    Dr Michael Hammer gave an interesting presentation at the FTDNA Conference today on R1b origins. Highlights included:

    Recent work on sibling Y haplogroup K suggests that R ancestors migrated out of Africa and into SouthEast Asia then moved back west into Anatolia. This implies changes are needed in the migration maps presented by FTDNA & Genographic project.

    Recap that no R1b found at ancient DNA sites from Europe.

    R1b subgroups and cultural markers evidence several expansion centers in Europe,

    Overall, P311 marker which is distinctly European part of R1b probably arose AFTER agriculture started in Europe but expanded rapidly and replaced G2a in the population. By contrast MtDNA pattern seems more conserved, especially in Northern Europe.

    With expansion of SNPs we are starting to get SNPs in the historic era. By implication, these are starting to correspond to population groups recorded in history.

    SNP CTS1122 seems like a distinctly Scottish Marker. Just as M222 is concentrated in Ireland and DF21 in England.

    There will be 21 new SNPs under M222 and all of them are tested on the NatGeo Geno 2.0 test. Plans to update the results page for these changes on the FTDNA result pages are well underway.

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    Jennifer Zinck gives more detail at Ancestor Central http://www.ancestorcentral.com/archives/821

    Dr. Michael Hammer presented Origins of R-M269 Diversity in Europe. In 2010 the R-M269 clade would fit on one page. Now it can be made into a scroll! Now we can start talking about breaking up haplogroups with SNPs and this is very exciting. SNPs are appearing much faster than they can even type them in populations.

    There were three major expansions into Europe. The first anatomically modern humans from Africa were about 45,000 years ago. Around 17,000 years ago after the Last Glacial Maximum out of the southern refugia there was a major expansion of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. Neolithic Farmers from the Near East expanded beginning about 10,000 years ago.

    In 2003, Diamond & Bellwood suggested that when these farming centers appeared due to independent origination of farming technology, these food production genes conferred an enormous advantage to farmers vs. hunter-gatherers. This triggered the outward expansions of farming populations. Their hypothesis was followed up by several studies looking at genetic replacement in Europe. There is disagreement about origins and timing. The Balareque group argues that “geographical distribution of STR diversity on the background of R-M269 is best explained by spread from a single source into the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic.” Busby’s study of 2012 contrasted that and found that there is no relationship between diversity and longitude for R-M269.

    Dr. Hammer felt that P311 had to be pretty old and he thought it should be watched as a pointer. Alternate hypotheses include one that says that R-P311 originated prior to the Neolithic wave of expansion and the other indicates afterward. Dr. Hammer turned to the ancient DNA literature. There is now enough data out of different ancient DNA studies with Y chromosomes. There were samples from caves in France, Spain, Germany, and the well known Otzi sample. These are 5,000 – 7,000 years old. The cave in France yielded 20 G2a samples and 2 I2a samples. The cave in Spain yielded 5 G2a samples and 1 E1bibi. In Germany 1 G2a3 and 2 F*. Three populations studied close to the French site yield about 60.5% R1b. The second site 52.8 and the third 53.3. This indicates that there is something different going on now than there was 5,000 years ago. This evidence supports a recent spread of HgR lineages into Europe. The R-P311 lineage moved after the Neolithic agricultural transition. This is the Y chromosome only. The mitochondrial lines indicate something totally different. This is a male driven process.

    U106, L21, and U152 each have a different epicenter in Europe. These radial distributions are the pattern that they’re seeing with the subhaplogroups. This suggests that the differentiation process may have occurred in multiple localized centers of expansion after the Neolithic period. Archaeological sites reveal that the spread of the Neolithic was not constant. There are “centers of renewed expansion” across Europe...

    We are now talking about population movements without about the past 4,000 years. R1b appears in the Caucasus by the early Neolithic. By the end of the Neolithic, it is still isolated to pockets in Eastern Europe. Then in the Early-Mid Bronze age about 4500-4000 years ago, R1b was found in central Europe. By about 4000-3500 years ago, R1b begins to reach western Europe. In the Iron Age 3200-3000 years ago there was a period of differentiation in centers of renewed expansion. It is possible that this continued through the Iron Age and can be seen as recently as 2,000 years ago. There is a lot left to be learned and the ancient DNA contribution will be very large to determine the R1b overtaking of the Neolithic chromosomes.
    Last edited by Humanist; 11-13-2013 at 02:55 PM.

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    Any closet statisticians want to comment on the relative power of the existing aDNA studies to find Hg R?

    Because of the tribal nature of ancient cultures will there will be a bias towards males being related? Maybe this makes it less likely?

    thanks

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    Am waiting for the complete set of session slides to be uploaded somewhere.

    (Could the moderator please correct the thread title to read 'Hammer' not 'Hammers').

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    Quote Originally Posted by greystones22 View Post
    Any closet statisticians want to comment on the relative power of the existing aDNA studies to find Hg R?
    In order to get a firmer grip on the timing and routes of Y-DNA R into Europe, we need far more ancient Y-DNA, and particularly from regions of Europe where no Y-DNA at all has yet been published. That includes the British Isles. There is a long way to go to achieve the kind of coverage that will take us out of the realms of speculation solely on the basis of modern DNA.
    Last edited by Jean M; 11-12-2013 at 11:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTC View Post
    (Could the moderator please correct the thread title to read 'Hammer' not 'Hammers').
    Sorry. I have fixed my post title, but suspect that the moderator may have to tweek something to make that show up outside the thread.

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    Hammer's theory risks of lacking its foundations if he doesn't prove that Middle East gets the ancestor of all R1b1 subclades, i.e. R-L388/L389+.
    The only Asians tested for this SNP (SNPs), for my impulse, are Raza and Joshi, both L389-.
    I am asking from many years that Middle Easterner R1b1 with YCAII= 21-23 or 23-23 are tested for L389 and not only for P25, which is ancestral and not equivalent to L389. That Mr Hammer tests the Armenian R1b1 of the "R1b1 FTDNA Project" and demonstrates that they are L389+.
    The Jewish cluster R1b1 is only one haplotype and introgressed from Western Europe.
    Last edited by Rathna; 11-12-2013 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    we need far more ancient Y-DNA, and particularly from regions of Europe where no Y-DNA at all has yet been published. That includes the British Isles.
    PoBI Project, where a-r-e you?

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    Some of the slides presented at the FTDNA 2013 conference appear to have been 'lifted' from the Eupedia Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) website.

    Clinton P
    • FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    • YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

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