Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 20 of 20

Thread: U 106 Volga & Caspan Regions(Tatars, Udmurts, Mordovians, Turkmens, Uzbeks&Kazakhs)

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    There's more Y-DNA H in Uzbekistan than there is R1b-L11.
    It is very good that haplogroup H is among Uzbeks, and haplogroup L is among Afghan Uzbeks. Well, the R2 haplogroup is everywhere in Central Asia. Uzbeks and Indians are friends, I hope. I like it when South Asian components are found in Uzbeks.

    But R1b among Uzbeks from 8.7 to 13% according to various data. And some of them -R1b L11. And I'm not sure that a very small part.

    Is there a particular reason you're repeatedly advocating this perception that R1b-U106 is prominent in the region (it isn't)?

    Well, firstly, I want to understand the proportions of subclades R1b among Uzbeks. Which of the R1b haplogroups Uzbeks major? Z2103 M73 or L11. A priori, it is considered that L11 is an outsider in this fight. But I'm not quite sure about that.
    Secondly, the broader stance -L11 is considered a European haplogroup, Europe is considered a separate part of the world, sometimes forgetting in places that Asia is a single continent. But I would not like to discuss further in this direction, since this is a very slippery topic.

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    I'm afraid the data doesn't objectively demonstrate what you'd like it to.
    And yes, I want to add. I have nothing against the fact that L11 in general and U106 in particular will be very minor among Uzbeks. It just seems to me that this is not yet completely clear, because not so much research has been done. But if you, as a specialist, think that the picture is already quite clear, then well, I will accept your opinion as a specialist. Although inside I will continue to doubt and wait for more research.

  3. #13
    Administrator
    Posts
    3,865
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    England
    But R1b among Uzbeks from 8.7 to 13% according to various data. And some of them -R1b L11. And I'm not sure that a very small part.
    R1b-L11 is a minority of Uzbek R1b. That is what the the data from both YFull and the Y-SNP tested studies indicate so far.

    The percentages could change (though it probably is 1-2% at best given our near-300 samples indicate this), but the bulk of Uzbek R1b belongs to branches which are more "Asian" than they are "European" (the L23* you see prominent in the Caucasus, Iran and West-Central Asia are largely undetermined subclades rather than being true para-subclades).

    Well, firstly, I want to understand the proportions of subclades R1b among Uzbeks. Which of the R1b haplogroups Uzbeks major? Z2103 M73 or L11. A priori, it is considered that L11 is an outsider in this fight. But I'm not quite sure about that.
    Secondly, the broader stance -L11 is considered a European haplogroup, Europe is considered a separate part of the world, sometimes forgetting in places that Asia is a single continent. But I would not like to discuss further in this direction, since this is a very slippery topic.
    The oldest R1b-L11 we have comes from Bronze Age Europe (the Kurganised Bell Beakers and late Vucedol culture of Central Europe). That is deep within Europe. We probably will find L11 further to the east, but probably no further than the Samara bend IMO.

    Hypotheticals are one thing, but the data we have right now doesn't indicate that R1b-L11 has any substantive presence in South-Central Asia.
    That doesn't mean Uzbeks carry the same subclades as Afghans, non-Pamiri Tajiks or Iranians - It's pretty clear that Uzbeks and Kazakhs carry low frequencies of some very interesting subclades that are exceptionally rare further south and could be broadly described as being "European-related". I also suspect that will be the case with the Pamiris, but we haven't seen a proper sampling of them since Wells et al.

    You aren't the only Central Asian with an unusual R-subclade; one of our moderators (khanabadoshi), who's largely of northern Pakistani heritage, carries an R1a subclade that is rare in Asia and is more typical of Balto-Slavs. Coincidentally - And this is the reason I mention him - Some Uzbeks have this subclade, too.

    And yes, I want to add. I have nothing against the fact that L11 in general and U106 in particular will be very minor among Uzbeks. It just seems to me that this is not yet completely clear, because not so much research has been done. But if you, as a specialist, think that the picture is already quite clear, then well, I will accept your opinion as a specialist. Although inside I will continue to doubt and wait for more research.
    Yes. To be clear, I'm validating your statement that there is L11 among Uzbeks, but disagree with the assertion that it comprises anything more than a minority of Uzbek R1b. I base that squarely on the Y-SNP confirmed Uzbek samples we have, which show a frequency of <1% overall and probably no more than 10% of Uzbek R1b (Haber + Karafet + YFull). We can be confident it won't be a substantial minority or majority of Uzbek R1b based on almost 300 samples, which most would consider to be reasonable in terms of representation. Feel free to expect a substantive change, but the consistently low percentage in different sample sets indicates that won't happen.

    I'm a numbers guy and don't have any skin in the game WRT how "Asian" or "European" certain subclades could be construed to be, so my comments are purely academic rather than personal (though I'm clearly interested in the region given the auto-recall of the studies).

  4. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    ho's largely of northern Pakistani heritage, carries an R1a subclade that is rare in Asia and is more typical of Balto-Slavs.
    As far as I know, TMRCA between Asian and European haplogroups R1a is about 4 thousand years ago, which is less than TMRCA between haplogroups R1b. According to the latest data, R1a among Uzbeks is 25-27%, so in Asia they are generally well represented
    The percentages could change (though it probably is 1-2% at best given our near-300 samples indicate this), but the bulk of Uzbek R1b belongs to branches which are more "Asian" than they are "European"
    Not sure that the M73 among Uzbeks far exceeds the L11. Among the Kazakhs, yes, surpasses. Z2103 probably more, you're right

  5. #15
    Administrator
    Posts
    3,865
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    England
    Quote Originally Posted by Scat View Post
    As far as I know, TMRCA between Asian and European haplogroups R1a is about 4 thousand years ago, which is less than TMRCA between haplogroups R1b.
    Doesn't have any real bearing on the discussion (your contention that R1b-L11 in Uzbeks may be more frequent than the 300-odd samples we have currently indicate).

    The MRCA between R1b-M269 and M73 is much larger than between R1a-Z93 and Z280. Doesn't mean Uzbekistan is some sort of R1b "hub" given that.

    Not sure that the M73 among Uzbeks far exceeds the L11. Among the Kazakhs, yes, surpasses. Z2103 probably more, you're right
    The sum of M73, L23*, P297* and M269* exceeds L11 in not only the Uzbeks, but also the Turkmen, Iranians and all Afghans. The prior four subclades can be construed as being more typical of Asia than Europe.

    That's what the data shows and what my earlier comment spelled out.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     pegasus (11-24-2018),  Wing Genealogist (11-24-2018)

  7. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    Good day! Welcome again
    . We probably will find L11 further to the east, but probably no further than the Samara bend IMO.
    Of course! No one says otherwise. I did not think that Uzbekistan is the hub of R1 L11. The Volga-Don region, the South Urals, is the contact zone of Central Asia and Europe. Do not forget part of the Uzbeks are not autochthonous and came from the Volga region, Western Kazakhstan and the Southern Urals.
    The sum of M73, L23*, P297* and M269* exceeds L11 in not only the Uzbeks, but also the Turkmen, Iranians and all Afghans. The prior four subclades can be construed as being more typical of Asia than Europe
    You say absolutely the right things and do it carefully, but nevertheless I am confused by some hint of a Eurocentric accent. I understand that the grading of L11 against the rest of Asian-like may be quite appropriate and even somewhere more relevant, but nevertheless, according to official cladistics, R1 L11 is rather grouped with R1 L23 * together in R1 L23. Whereas TRMCA with R1 M269 * is much older, and the R1 M73 haplogroup is not included in the vast large haplogroup R1 M269 at all. That is, the more correct is not an isolationist approach in my humble opinion, but one where Europe is an integral part of Asia.

  8. #17
    Administrator
    Posts
    3,865
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    England
    Quote Originally Posted by Scat View Post
    Do not forget part of the Uzbeks are not autochthonous and came from the Volga region, Western Kazakhstan and the Southern Urals.
    That's implied in my series of responses, yes. A big chunk of their ancestry (alongside that of everyone else in the region) comes from there (hell, even Iranians and Kurds are in the 15-25% range for that type of ancestry).

    You say absolutely the right things and do it carefully, but nevertheless I am confused by some hint of a Eurocentric accent. I understand that the grading of L11 against the rest of Asian-like may be quite appropriate and even somewhere more relevant, but nevertheless, according to official cladistics, R1 L11 is rather grouped with R1 L23 * together in R1 L23. Whereas TRMCA with R1 M269 * is much older, and the R1 M73 haplogroup is not included in the vast large haplogroup R1 M269 at all. That is, the more correct is not an isolationist approach in my humble opinion, but one where Europe is an integral part of Asia.
    Y-DNA R1b-L11 was considered equivalent to P310 for several years (it's just a node downstream now and is equivalent to L151). YFull (same link) has the MRCA at 4.8kya (note that's coincidentally close to the division between R1a1a-Z93 and Z280, which you quite funnily cited as evidence against an earlier comment I made). Ergo, the italicised comment is incorrect.

    R1b-L11 should not be grouped alongside L23*, as the latter is approx. 1kya older. L11* may be depending on the circumstance, but we aren't discussing the subclades or characteristic of Uzbek L11 currently, so this is a tangent (or distraction, depending on the viewpoint).

    R1b-L11 is generally considered a "European" subclade of R1b because all of the current aDNA thus far indicates it arose in Europe (defined as the territory west of the Urals) and the majority of the people who carry it are Europeans. Debate concerning how the European peninsula is oriented WRT Asia is both semantic and tangential.

    Please avoid openly speculating about any Eurocentrism on my part (i.e. personalising the discussion) - It's a subjective distraction (and against our rules).

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     jdean (11-26-2018),  Scat (11-26-2018)

  10. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    R1b-L11 should not be grouped alongside L23*, as the latter is approx. 1kya older
    but this is closer than the distance between l23 * and M73 for example, which you summarize as a counterweight to l11
    Y-DNA R1b-L11 was considered equivalent to P310 for several years (it's just a node downstream now and is equivalent to L151).
    is correct downward L51 -L52-L11-P310?
    which you quite funnily cited as evidence against an earlier comment I made).
    No, I guess I was misunderstood. I abstract more from our subject matter in that post and this is more of my offtopic on the topic of R1a, than proof of my position on this topic. I'm not that funny anyway
    Last edited by Scat; 11-26-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  11. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    Today I discovered another interesting point, which inclines me to the fact that not everything is so simple with the proportions of subclades R1b among Uzbeks. Just looking at the base of the early subclades R1b in FTDNA saw several people from R1b m73 country-Uzbekistan, but in the footnotes who the ancestor says "Karakalpak Nation". Karakalpaks - steppe nomadic people between Uzbeks, Turkmen and Kazakhs. And much closer to the situation than to the Uzbeks.
    But refers to Uzbekistan. Karakalpaks generally have more all R1b than Uzbeks in percentage terms. But the proportions of the haplogroups R1b are different. So, Karakalpak apparently has more M73 and generally early subclades.
    I assume that perhaps the researchers of Ftdna and Yfull had an error, they considered the Karakalpaks to be part of the Uzbeks, and because of this the percentage of early subclades among the Uzbeks was higher

  12. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Ethnicity
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Nationality
    Midlle asian(uzbek),tatar
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1-Z156>DF98>S22069

    Uzbekistan Russia Tatarstan Kazakhstan Tajikistan
    Found u106 in one Bashkir, according to the predictor, but very clearly. Thus, the Bashkirs among l11 have not only u152, but also u106

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. A study that includes Y-DNA results from Iraqi Turkmens
    By Theodore Gavras in forum Turkish
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-13-2018, 11:02 PM
  2. Karakalpakstan Turkmens Y DNA
    By Arame in forum Other
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-24-2016, 08:01 AM
  3. Tatars from C haplogroup
    By Bulat in forum C
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-07-2016, 10:37 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-05-2016, 12:07 AM
  5. Iraqi Turkmens
    By Alanson in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-07-2014, 08:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •