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Thread: Ancient Yamnaya Hair and Eye color and Cheddar Man: do the same criticisms apply?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    No, it's mine, but based on Global 25. Maybe I should open a thread.
    That would be good to have such a thread.
    For K25 and other calculators by me you can send me you raw data to my email: Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by IphonePlus View Post
    Okay so you are saying that the Yamnaya changed between the time they settled in Urkaine but were differently looking as they migrated in full force to Iran and India?
    Yamnaya (Pit Grave) were already dark-eyed/haired in the Ukraine (and elsewhere). What's weird is that their Eneolithic predecessors in Ukraine and Russia (like Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog) are apparently not uniformly dark, though the sample size is admittedly small compared to Yamnaya. So if Yamnaya are their direct descendants (as is often supposed), the pigmentation change there is also a mystery.

    The story so far is that Yamnaya moved into Central Europe and mixed with the local Old Europeans there, producing folks like Corded Ware (and also Bell Beakers). These groups still have a lot of Yamnaya steppe ancestry, mind you, but, as a consequence of their admixture with Old Europeans, they have a higher share of EEF (and I guess WHG) ancestry than Yamnaya. It was people like this that later "back-migrated" to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, creating the Sintashta, Andronovo, and Srubnaya cultures. The last were probably ancestral Proto-Indo-Iranians. Given the links these people had to Central Europe, it is not surprising that their pigmentation patterns match those of Corded Ware and Beakers rather than of Yamnaya. So it's sensible to guess that high rates of blondism in certain Old Europeans (like Globular Amphora) is what made the difference in Yamnaya's Central European descendants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    ...

    So unlike the WHG result where very dark pigmentation seems atypical for most populations evolving on a fairly long time scale at northern latitudes, there's less reason to suspect that we're missing significant details because the result is strange.
    ...
    From Ust Ishim to Yana to MA1 is 21000 years.
    Yana is about as northern you can get.
    Nothing strange about the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    From Ust Ishim to Yana to MA1 is 21000 years.
    Yana is about as northern you can get.
    Nothing strange about the results.
    If we've got problems estimating pigmentation in WHG, due to being out of scope of modern day variation, we probably have at least as much in Yana (likely more). Plus Yana is only at midpoint of now->Ust Ishim, and the WHG about another quarter of time now->Ust Ishim.

    I think Mathieson's new results supposedly showing steady increases over time in the different West Eurasian adna populations using a wider range of markers will probably start to give a more nuanced picture here. I don't say WHG were necessarily the same as moderns, but seems fairly likely to me that we are underestimating changes in pigmentation in WHG from the ancestral background.

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    Megalophias, that was very helpful. thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Yamnaya (Pit Grave) were already dark-eyed/haired in the Ukraine (and elsewhere). What's weird is that their Eneolithic predecessors in Ukraine and Russia (like Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog) are apparently not uniformly dark, though the sample size is admittedly small compared to Yamnaya. So if Yamnaya are their direct descendants (as is often supposed), the pigmentation change there is also a mystery.

    The story so far is that Yamnaya moved into Central Europe and mixed with the local Old Europeans there, producing folks like Corded Ware (and also Bell Beakers). These groups still have a lot of Yamnaya steppe ancestry, mind you, but, as a consequence of their admixture with Old Europeans, they have a higher share of EEF (and I guess WHG) ancestry than Yamnaya. It was people like this that later "back-migrated" to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, creating the Sintashta, Andronovo, and Srubnaya cultures. The last were probably ancestral Proto-Indo-Iranians. Given the links these people had to Central Europe, it is not surprising that their pigmentation patterns match those of Corded Ware and Beakers rather than of Yamnaya. So it's sensible to guess that high rates of blondism in certain Old Europeans (like Globular Amphora) is what made the difference in Yamnaya's Central European descendants.
    Can you show me which studies show or imply the migrations Srubnaya cultures to Iran and India? Are these not the famous Indo-Europeans who invaded India? I thought there was a wave of Yamna's who already went to India in the early Bronze age. Thank you again, your insight is invaluable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IphonePlus View Post
    Can you show me which studies show or imply the migrations Srubnaya cultures to Iran and India? Are these not the famous Indo-Europeans who invaded India? I thought there was a wave of Yamna's who already went to India in the early Bronze age.
    I wouldn't say they're the direct source of the invaders, but they're probably ancestral to them. Y-haplogroup frequencies (the prevalence of specific R1a subclades, to be specific) and genome-wide studies strongly suggest a MLBA Steppe origin for Proto-Indo-Iranians. Read this paper for the latest on India. Read this, too. Indo-Iranian-speaking steppe people must have arrived in India and Iran from Central Asia, so it's just a question of timing and the best fits genetically and archaeologically. The Proto-Aryans also had some exotic Western Siberian hunter-gatherer ancestry that they picked up in Central Asia before making their trek south.

    At any rate, Yamnaya and its eastern relatives are far too early to be contenders for Indo-Iranian, and they were replaced anyhow by people like Sinstashta, Andronovo, and Srubnaya. It seems all the earlier Yamnaya-like steppe groups in Europe and Central Asia were absorbed or replaced by these more Corded Ware-like "MLBA" steppe people. This replacement would explain the appearance of the R1a-carrying blond or rufous Tarim mummies. If they were only descended of the earlier steppe people who lived close to this general area (Afanasievo), you'd expect them to have black hair and brown eyes, and be R1b carriers. Pontic-Caspian steppe people of all periods were extremely expansionist, and you can see their mark even in Northeast Asians like Buryats and Yakuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by IphonePlus View Post
    I thought there was a wave of Yamna's who already went to India in the early Bronze age.
    I don't think so for India-- the Balkans and Near East, sure. The Gutians might have been one such group. The nature of the steppe input in Proto-Anatolians and Proto-Greeks remains mysterious and highly contested; many think these languages were carried into the Balkans and Anatolia by an earlier wave of steppe people (like Yamnaya), as opposed to the later Corded and Beaker-like groups which were ancestral to the vast majority of other Indo-Europeans (Germanic, Italo-Celtic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, etc.). All will be revealed in time.
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  10. #28
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    Alright, thank you. Can't seem to find where the "Proto-Aryans" had western Siberian ancestry but okay. Regardless, it seems like the portion of Yamnaya ancestry that the Iron Age Scythians (Southern) didn't have alot (or none) Siberian Ancestry.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615
    Last edited by IphonePlus; 11-21-2018 at 10:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    They could be, because there's enough about pigmentation we don't understand. Albeit have to give some caveats about why this is probably less of an issue than for WHG:

    - Yamnaya contributed a lot more ancestry to people in Europe today than the WHG did...
    What's interesting, from a phenotypological point of view, is that facial reconstructions of WHG show them as looking very modern-day Northern European, which would suggest there are features being passed down despite a loss of a lot of the autosomal DNA.

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