Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 116

Thread: From R-L23/L150 to R-PF7580 & L584

  1. #11
    It is very interesting that the Chinese Han of 1KGP (NA18645) is closely linked to the Armenian Kassabian (164226), thus our haplogroup has nothing to do with Central and East Asia: there was brought recently, like the mtDNA K3 found in China but come probably from Caucasus. Thus the problem of the origin is between Alps and Caucasus, as it was clear for me already from so long.
    The same I have written about the Hui haplotype which matches closely mine, and I supposed a descendant of one of the Roman soldiers of the Crassus Army defeated at Carrhae on 53 BC. 10,000 of them were deported to Merv and after some of them fought with White Huns against Chinese.

  2. #12
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    896
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldschlager View Post
    I have following close matches: 1@1, 3@2, 2@4, 1@5 and 1@ distance 6.
    I could attempt to write some and suggest the L584 test. Would it matter the genetic distance?
    Actually could a project request this?
    Genetic distance is important. Which STR marker that match or not is more important. Mutation rates vary by marker. Eyes on an individual's STRs and your judgement is more reliable than the FTDNA distance calculators. A good example can be found in the Jewish R1b Project in the ungrouped section where L21 and L584 have very similar haplotypes. Distances of 5 or 6 could be iffy.

    In your case it's fairly easy to find likely close matches in the projects. Even if they do not have 67 STRs
    Jewish R1b Project
    German Jewish Gersig DNA Project
    Jews of Frankfurt
    SHAPIRO (also SPEYER, SPIER, SPIRA) DNA Project
    The last two projects look abandoned. Googling kit# FTDNA lists what other project they may belong to.

    Project managers hopefully would encourage members to test for L584. Your testing and commitment give you a certain amount of credibility too. Contact people directly it you can. You are doing people a big favor with your testing and have a specific reason for them to test. The least they can do is a L584 SNP test.

    Humanist has the most experience with getting people tested for L584 or L943. Check out the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project SNP page and you will see L584 or L943 results.

    This shows some of his work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    I cannot speak for the Armenian project, but in the Assyrian project most of the members of the project are ethnic Assyrians living in the United States and other countries outside of the Middle East. In the R1b category, in the Assyrian Project, however, the men from Lebanon are not ethnic Assyrians. I maintain a separate sheet, containing all haplotypes of ethnic Assyrian R1b men, including both FTDNA and other data (e.g. SMGF) (please see below). The Aramaic Project contains data for people that currently speak a dialect of Aramaic as their vernacular (i.e. Assyrians), or may have at one time spoken an Aramaic dialect (e.g. Jews).

     
    Twelve-marker haplotypes for all R-M269 Assyrians that I am aware of. Almost all of them are from the "Nestorian" church. Most participants in the project, as previously mentioned, are from the "Nestorian" church. The smallest of the three churches.

    Code:
    A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
    B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
    C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
    D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
    E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
    F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
    G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
    H 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26 L584
    I 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    J 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 L584
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    L 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 L584
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-11-2013 at 03:19 AM.

  3. #13
    A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
    B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
    C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
    D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
    E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
    F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
    G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

    I ask Humanist if these haplotypes not L584 are tested for L277, above all those with DYS392=14.
    I have demonstrated on many fora that all the Jewish R-L23 with
    DYS389I=13
    DYS392=14
    DYS389II=28
    are R-L277+.

  4. #14
    Administrator
    Posts
    2,446
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    G-V2154
    mtDNA
    HV4a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    A 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28 Northwest, Iraq.
    B 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 <-- I have speculated that this man may be L277. Barwar, Iraq.
    C 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27 L277+ ("L405" man from 23andMe). Tiyari, Turkey.
    D 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
    E 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
    F 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
    G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

    I ask Humanist if these haplotypes not L584 are tested for L277, above all those with DYS392=14.
    I have demonstrated on many fora that all the Jewish R-L23 with
    DYS389I=13
    DYS392=14
    DYS389II=28
    are R-L277+.
    My notes are in blue, above.

    If you are looking to sponsor their testing for L277, you are more than welcome to donate to the Assyrian Project. L277 SNP testing is $49.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    My notes are in blue, above.

    If you are looking to sponsor their testing for L277, you are more than welcome to donate to the Assyrian Project. L277 SNP testing is $49.
    Humanist, L405+ is a mutation of hg. P that we all have from a G to C. L584+ is a second mutation of that C to T (I am quoting by memory), thus to be L405+ should mean not to be L584+.
    I have no doubt that all your haplotypes with DYS392=14 are L277+. The unique haplotype that would merit to be tested is this
    G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
    for having DYS392=13. On another thread I have published an Argentinian haplotype (of probably Italian origin) that matches the haplotype of Manno (R-L277+) but with DYS392=13.
    Of course we may hypothesize that, even though DYS392=14 is modal in L277+, some mutations may have happened. The scarcity of mutations should be for a recent origin of this subclade, even though from your haplotypes we may see that there is a high variation.
    I'll study this haplotype. You know that, not having at my disposal an FTDNA or other firm, I have to study the haplotypes for constructing my theories. If I'll think that your haplotype and to know its SNP will be important for my theories, I won't have any problem to contribute to its test.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     Humanist (12-16-2013)

  7. #16
    Administrator
    Posts
    2,446
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    G-V2154
    mtDNA
    HV4a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Humanist, L405+ is a mutation of hg. P that we all have from a G to C. L584+ is a second mutation of that C to T (I am quoting by memory), thus to be L405+ should mean not to be L584+.
    Thank you, Rathna. Apologies. It has been a couple of years since the Adriano Squecco sheets, L405/L584, etc. But, my error in the specific SNP notwithstanding, Mezdo (the man from Tyari) was in the same lot as Burkholder, the Armenian L277 and others. And his STR values do not give me reason to believe he is not L277. If I have some spare money to test him, I will. But, I would rather test the man from Barwar, Iraq, if I do test any man for L277 soon.

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    The unique haplotype that would merit to be tested is this
    G 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
    for having DYS392=13.
    But if the haplotype is this
    147979 Hermes Iraq R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-21 18 15 18 17 35-37 12 11 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23-23 18 10 12 12 16 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    it has already been put amongst the L584+.
    From its series
    8 10 10 8 11 11
    11 13 11 11 12 12
    I'd say: R-L584+.

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    But, I would rather test the man from Barwar, Iraq, if I do test any man for L277 soon.
    190249 Sada Iraq R1b1a2
    12 23 12 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 15 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

    Of course this haplotype is completely an outlier, but the presence of some series like
    13 14 28
    8 10 10 8 10 10
    11 13 11 11 12 12
    put it in the R-L277+ range. That it matches in other series other haplotypes of L277+ with an high Mutation Rate shouldn't mean that those aren't mutated, but they may be due to convergent mutations.

    The problem for me is another, i.e., whereas I am pretty sure that L584+ finds its ancient origin in Italy or Europe through the intermediate SNP PF7580, L277+ seems not having an intermediate SNP since Z2103/Z2105 and is diffused overall between India and Western Europe. Thus to understand its origin will be able to give some light also on the origin of R-Z2103/Z2105+.

  10. #19
    I think that from these samples Sada is linked to the Caucasian area:

    GVQAS Sada Iraq
    12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9 10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15 15 15 18 11 12 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 38 12 12
    HPUT8 Georgia Unknown
    12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 14 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 12 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 37 12 12
    P9N8S Anas Turkey
    12 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15 15 15 16 10 12 19 22 16 16 17 17 36 38 11 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 11

    P.S. We may also reconstruct the modal of their MRCA about 60 generations ago:
    12 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 15 17 11 12 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 38 12 12
    and this could explain also some weird mutations as multistep ones, probably due to the age of the father.
    Last edited by Rathna; 12-16-2013 at 11:35 AM.

  11. #20
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    896
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    From the another thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Farroukh View Post
    Dear Joe, my maternal granfather is R1b-L584 and Z2103 is typical for our region. Therefore I try to learn about Z2103 as much as it is possible.
    Let me show you another tree:

    Attachment 1137

    You are definetly from old European branch. Let us talk about it in a related topic, not here.
    Farroukh,
    This thread temporarily has the most recent findings concerning R1b-L584 phylogeny. The most important news right now concerns SNP PF7580 that is found on the Genographic 2.0 snp array test. Hopefully the other products like Chromo 2 and the Big Y will help figure out this subclade of R1b-Z2103.
    I think this is where we are at with R1b-L584.
    L584* R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>PF7580>L584 L943-
    L943* R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>PF7580>L584>L943*
    CTS1848 and PF3449 placement is unclear. Could this be the order? L584>CTS1848>PF3449>L943*?
    Thank your grandfather for his participation!

    P.S. Saw that you added a L277 group to the Azeri project. That was quick!
    Should have mentioned Chris Morley's Experimental Y-SNP Phylogenies and Y-SNP Subclade Predictor (beta) as very useful tools for all the Y haplogroups. Chris lets us know when it is updated.
    Quote Originally Posted by cmorley View Post
    I've released an updated phylogeny (8 October 2013), in advance of this weekend's FTDNA conference.
    As before, http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny is the preferred link. Rather than a direct link to the PDF.
    Welcome Aboard
    Last edited by Joe B; 12-30-2013 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Added Postscript

Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. L277 and L584
    By Jarman in forum R1b-Z2103/Z2105
    Replies: 129
    Last Post: 07-23-2017, 06:26 PM
  2. From R-L150 to R-CTS7822
    By kostop in forum R1b-Z2103/Z2105
    Replies: 366
    Last Post: 04-25-2017, 06:17 PM
  3. R1b-L277.1* R1b-M269>L23>L150>Z2103>Z2105>L277.1* 2014
    By Joe B in forum R1b-Z2103/Z2105
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 05-25-2014, 07:01 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •