An observation on Tarim and Afanasievo

[alan]

I found interesting the observation in my reading about the Dzungaria gate that the southern Tarim route east tended to be taken by traders while the northern route towards the Dzungarian gate through the steppe tended to be taken by nomadic invaders. That might be something to chew over in terms of copper age movements east of R groups. The following maps indicate something interesting.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/images/en/map06.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wrNXSWPyDx....org+-+Map.jpg


We do have evidence for Bronze Age R1a in Tarim and lineages controlling nodes on trading networks would seem a likely explanation if that observation on Tarim being more of a trade route than a large scale migration one. However, Afansievo is located at the east end of the northern route through the Khazak steppe, the route apparently usually taken by invaders rather than traders. The culture appears to stop in the mouth of the Dzungarian gate and does not enter through it.

That is suggestive to me that they the Tarim mummies and Afanasievo may be different things altogether. I am not trying to suggest on in R1a and one is R1b as I dont think that works either but I think the two routes, two functions aspect needs to be factored in.

I think the evidence is confusing. We can see from the Altai study that today R1b (M73) is only found in a northern Altai group with links to a retreat east from further west and is close to absent in the south. R1a is more common in general in Altai. We also have both R1a and R1b in the modern Tarim area. Finally the Tarim mummies are so far R1a in terms of R.

I think there is a lot more to be teased out of the story of R's west to east phase in central Asia.

There seems to be a lot of R1a and b in Kazakhstan.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

However the Hindu Kush study shows very little R1b compared to R1a in Kyrgyzstan and Mongolia although it only covers groups like Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tajiks etc via their element on Afghanistan its fair to say that they are also very light on R1b. The upshot of this is that contrary to some opinions R1b looks very light in the southern 'Stan' counties and appears to be more common among Iranians and Khazaks.

[newtoboard]

I think the only way the Tarim Mummies and Afanasievo are not the same thing is if somehow the Tarim mummies are Andronovo derived. There are multiple problems with that scenario imo.

[newtoboard]

And the Kazakhstan R1b is quite interesting. But I think its important to keep in mind the oral history of some Kazakhs tracing their ancestry to Muslim missionaries as well as the fact that Kazakhstan was the destination for many movements within the Soviet Union. I recall a study showing the Kurds of Kazakhstan having a lot of upstream R1b and they are obviously transplants from West Asia. My hunch tells me the Kazakh R1b is recent because it would have expanded into South Central Asia and South Asia during the expansion of Andronovo tribes.

[newtoboard]

Central Asia is just so poorly understood from a DNA standpoint.

I would love to know what lineages were present in the following cultures

Keltiminar (Western Kazakhstan)
Botai (East-Central Kazakhstan)
Jeitun (Turkmenistan)
BMAC (Uzbekistan)
Hissar (Tajikistan)

Might shed a light on upstream R1b, R1a and R2 as well as how they expanded.

[alan]

There could well be a connection but it appears to be a very different thing and I suppose phase with two different routes being followed probably for two different reasons. How one links to the other is still to be determined. It must have been a significant cultural change and change of modus operandi between the two.

I understand the Tarim route historically was considered much safer than the northern route due to steppe nomads. The Tarim route was geographically more tricky but safer. Here is a guess- perhaps as a first precocious wave way to the east Afanasievo peoples didnt have a lot to worry about in terms of other steppe nomads but later waves on steppe nomads following behind them in the Bronze Age made a return journey from the Afanasievo outpost unsafe and the southern Tarim route more attractive. I presume that would be down to Andronovo which according to maps does look like it blocked the route west after 2000BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

You would probably know a lot more than me about the post-Afansievo nomads on the Khazak steppes.

I think the only way the Tarim Mummies and Afanasievo are not the same thing is if somehow the Tarim mummies are Andronovo derived. There are multiple problems with that scenario imo.

[newtoboard]

There could well be a connection but it appears to be a very different thing and I suppose phase with two different routes being followed probably for two different reasons. How one links to the other is still to be determined. It must have been a significant cultural change and change of modus operandi between the two.

I understand the Tarim route historically was considered much safer than the northern route due to steppe nomads. The Tarim route was geographically more tricky but safer. Here is a guess- perhaps as a first precocious wave way to the east Afanasievo peoples didnt have a lot to worry about in terms of other steppe nomads but later waves on steppe nomads following behind them in the Bronze Age made a return journey from the Afanasievo outpost unsafe and the southern Tarim route more attractive. You would probably know a lot more than me about the post-Afansievo nomads on the Khazak steppes.

I have read that the lifestyle of Afanasievo had some parallels in East Central Asia. And the type of farming in the Tarim only has parallel to the BMAC. But that might be due to those parallels being introduced by Iranian speakers , especially in the case of the farming. It does seem post Afansievo the nomads on the Kazakh steppe likely blocked the Northern route. Which is why we saw the Kushan empire expand through the Tarim route and into Bactria and South Asia.

[alan]

If the R1b in Kazakhstan was early though it would have either had to be among the Afanasievo or Andronovo groups. In light of other links between R1b and Iranian speakers it is interesting that R1b has a significant presence in that area and a poor presence further south and east in central Asia.

Dont get me wrong though I do not see a major role in the eastern part of the IE story for R1b but I doubt absence. M269 if it is part of the steppe story is largely a western one so I would not expect large amounts moving east.

And the Kazakhstan R1b is quite interesting. But I think its important to keep in mind the oral history of some Kazakhs tracing their ancestry to Muslim missionaries as well as the fact that Kazakhstan was the destination for many movements within the Soviet Union. I recall a study showing the Kurds of Kazakhstan having a lot of upstream R1b and they are obviously transplants from West Asia. My hunch tells me the Kazakh R1b is recent because it would have expanded into South Central Asia and South Asia during the expansion of Andronovo tribes.

[newtoboard]

If the R1b in Kazakhstan was early though it would have either had to be among the Afanasievo or Andronovo groups. In light of other links between R1b and Iranian speakers it is interesting that R1b has a significant presence in that area and a poor presence further south and east in central Asia.

Dont get me wrong though I do not see a major role in the eastern part of the IE story for R1b but I doubt absence. M269 if it is part of the steppe story is largely a western one so I would not expect large amounts moving east.

I actually believe there was an absence. While I am open to the possibility that R1b as well as R1a-Z283+/Z282+/Z280+/M458+ (and maybe even I2c) clades might have once existed alongside R1a-Z93+ I think Andronovo will end up being very bottlenecked for R1a-Z93+ so I doubt it left anything but that in Central Asia. I think the bottleneck occurred in the Poltavka-->Andronovo phase. This is where that steppe study would be helpful. If anything other than R1a-Z93+ was present in steppe Iranians I would expect it in Timber-Grave not Andronovo.

While I agree there is a link with Iranian languages for R1b-L23 I see it as a link with West Iranian languages and not Proto Iranian . Which is why R1b has such a poor presence south and east of Central Asia. Because West Iranian languages never really existed there. I bet there is even a R1b division between Balochistan vs Afghanistan and Sindh. Its quite likely the Central Asian R1b-L23+ is directly from Iran. Tajiks speak West Iranian languages and have other lineages which connect them with the Middle East than Pashtuns do not have. They also seem to have much more of the Caucasus component. And the Maykop link for West Asian R1b-L23 makes sense.

[Silesian]

I actually believe there was an absence. While I am open to the possibility that R1b as well as R1a-Z283+/Z282+/Z280+/M458+ (and maybe even I2c) clades might have once existed alongside R1a-Z93+ I think Andronovo will end up being very bottlenecked for R1a-Z93+ so I doubt it left anything but that in Central Asia. I think the bottleneck occurred in the Poltavka-->Andronovo phase. This is where that steppe study would be helpful. If anything other than R1a-Z93+ was present in steppe Iranians I would expect it in Timber-Grave not Andronovo.

While I agree there is a link with Iranian languages for R1b-L23 I see it as a link with West Iranian languages and not Proto Iranian . Which is why R1b has such a poor presence south and east of Central Asia. Because West Iranian languages never really existed there. I bet there is even a R1b division between Balochistan vs Afghanistan and Sindh. Its quite likely the Central Asian R1b-L23+ is directly from Iran. Tajiks speak West Iranian languages and have other lineages which connect them with the Middle East than Pashtuns do not have. They also seem to have much more of the Caucasus component. And the Maykop link for West Asian R1b-L23 makes sense.

Digor Ossets are the last remaining surviving branch Scythian/Alan branch of Eastern Iranians the L23x51 is the same as found in the Mede[Talysh][Azeri][Lur] areas of Iran both are considered old and the same branch. R1a has a very poor showing[Ossets Digor] in terms of numbers in that region.

[nuadha]

I think the only way the Tarim Mummies and Afanasievo are not the same thing is if somehow the Tarim mummies are Andronovo derived. There are multiple problems with that scenario imo.

could you explain the problems you see?