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Thread: The darkest period of the Dark Ages; Nordic migration push!?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Thanks. It certainly looks Scandinavian with its pronounced bow carrying a semi-disc. Any more examples would be appreciated when you have time.
    Fibula Achlum (550 AD):

    http://archeologie.frl/vondsten/de-fibula-van-achlum/

    (click on it to enlarge)

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  3. #22
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    Findings of cross shaped fibula,


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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Findings of cross shaped fibula,

    Very useful, thanks Finn. That Achlum fibula is beautiful. The map is also interesting, although I would add the caveat that the cruciform brooches of Norway look very different from those found further south and in England. Kind of like Anglian fibulae on steroids. I can't immediately think of any objects that were typical of particular communities and almost identical in Norway and England. Even the wrist clasps beloved by Anglian women were different in Scandinavia (and sometimes used on men's leggings as far as I remember). There is of course sharing of motifs/art styles. I remember seeing Swedish work that is reminiscent of the stylised head on Saxon button brooches found in England.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Fibula Achlum (550 AD):

    http://archeologie.frl/vondsten/de-fibula-van-achlum/

    (click on it to enlarge)
    It is not stated there the Achlum fibula IS Scandinavian. "De fibula van Achlum is een model fibula wat is geïnspireerd op een type fibula die ook al is aangetroffen in Scandinavië en word ook wel het ’Jutland’ type genoemd."

  8. #25
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    found a page(in german) describing the various styles with chronology
    https://www.peraperis.com/blog/histo...-tierstil.html

    app the most were developed in scandinavia but styleI became generic germanic
    acc to another paper deities were present in arts from ~400ad and onwards
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek&SouthItalian 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%Greek/Albania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    2. The Odin cult was before the influence of the Nordics unknown along the southern North Sea.
    Wotan/Odin was the main God of the Germanics. Also he was worshiped in first centuries CE at the lower Rhine area (Germania inferior). From German Wikipedia:

    "In den ersten nachchristlichen Jahrhunderten wurde Wodan in der Germania inferior durch Weihesteine geehrt, die in der Regel von Germanen gestiftet wurden, die in römischen Militär- oder Staatsdiensten standen. Die Steine tragen Inschriften, die den Namen des Mercurius mit germanischen Begrifflichkeiten paaren, seien es Bezüge zu Örtlichkeiten, zu einzelnen Stämmen oder Namensformen mit anderen Bezügen. Beispielhafte Inschriften sind Mercurius Cimbrianus „Wodan der Kimbern“' und Mercurius Leudisius „Wodan von Lüttich“.[17]"

    Also, there are two main theories, where the god Wotan comes from. One states he is a common Germanic god and the other states Wodan has developed in the lower Rhine / Northwestgerman area and spread from there over all Germanics. Here from German Wikipedia:

    "Die Deutungen[18] der Felsbilder führten neben anderen Aspekten[19] in der Forschung zu einer ungeklärten Streitfrage. Auf der einen Seite steht die in Anlehnung an Georges Dumézil und andere[20] vertretene These, dass Wodan/Odin eine gesamtgermanische Götterfigur aus indogermanischer Zeit sei.[21] Auf der anderen Seite steht die These der allmählichen Wanderung des Wodan-Kults,[22] der sich vor der Zeitenwende im niederrheinisch-nordwestdeutschen Raum entwickelt und von dort ausgebreitet habe und dabei den alten Hoch- und Himmelsgott Tiwaz aus dessen Stellung verdrängte.[23] Dieser Prozess müsse dann im Kontext der Auseinandersetzungen mit dem Römischen Reich sowie der Veränderung innergermanischer Verhältnisse gesehen werden.[24]"

    Your statement, Wotan was not known at the lower Rhine area (= Southern Shore of North Sea), before "Nordics" came with him, contradicts both theories.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Wotan/Odin was the main God of the Germanics. Also he was worshiped in first centuries CE at the lower Rhine area (Germania inferior). From German Wikipedia:

    "In den ersten nachchristlichen Jahrhunderten wurde Wodan in der Germania inferior durch Weihesteine geehrt, die in der Regel von Germanen gestiftet wurden, die in römischen Militär- oder Staatsdiensten standen. Die Steine tragen Inschriften, die den Namen des Mercurius mit germanischen Begrifflichkeiten paaren, seien es Bezüge zu Örtlichkeiten, zu einzelnen Stämmen oder Namensformen mit anderen Bezügen. Beispielhafte Inschriften sind Mercurius Cimbrianus „Wodan der Kimbern“' und Mercurius Leudisius „Wodan von Lüttich“.[17]"

    Also, there are two main theories, where the god Wotan comes from. One states he is a common Germanic god and the other states Wodan has developed in the lower Rhine / Northwestgerman area and spread from there over all Germanics. Here from German Wikipedia:

    "Die Deutungen[18] der Felsbilder führten neben anderen Aspekten[19] in der Forschung zu einer ungeklärten Streitfrage. Auf der einen Seite steht die in Anlehnung an Georges Dumézil und andere[20] vertretene These, dass Wodan/Odin eine gesamtgermanische Götterfigur aus indogermanischer Zeit sei.[21] Auf der anderen Seite steht die These der allmählichen Wanderung des Wodan-Kults,[22] der sich vor der Zeitenwende im niederrheinisch-nordwestdeutschen Raum entwickelt und von dort ausgebreitet habe und dabei den alten Hoch- und Himmelsgott Tiwaz aus dessen Stellung verdrängte.[23] Dieser Prozess müsse dann im Kontext der Auseinandersetzungen mit dem Römischen Reich sowie der Veränderung innergermanischer Verhältnisse gesehen werden.[24]"

    Your statement, Wotan was not known at the lower Rhine area (= Southern Shore of North Sea), before "Nordics" came with him, contradicts both theories.
    Before the migration time/ influx of the A-S/Nordic stream, the North Dutch did not undoubtful belong to the Germanic world, afterwards they did. Inclusive the language and use of runes etc. From this time the bracteate and fibula have Odin motives.

    Nowadays the North Dutch still plot close (auDNA) to the early Anglo-Saxons....In the area of Germanic inferior (South Dutch/Belgium) this isn't the case.
    Last edited by Finn; 11-28-2018 at 08:32 AM.

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