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Thread: The darkest period of the Dark Ages; Nordic migration push!?

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    Here are far more explanations debated than Iceland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrem...35%E2%80%93536

    These weather anomalies for sure had some effect upon migrations. But most had already been and Slavic expansion was after Justinianic plague (abt. 550).

    Regarding "Jutes" in England: Settlement areas are said to have been Kent and Isle of Wight with surrounding areas. The material culture of the immigrant Germanics in Kent area was the most Roman influenced among all immigrant Germanics. If it would have been Juteland Jutes they would - in contrary - have been the most remote to Roman culture Germanics among the immigrants. This strongly suggests it was about the Eotas, a small Germanic tribe who long had lived in proximity to the Rhine mouth. If they in turn have anything with Juteland Jutes to do is not known. However, it can be ruled out, the "Jutes" settling in Kent came (directly) from Juteland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Here are far more explanations debated than Iceland:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrem...35%E2%80%93536

    These weather anomalies for sure had some effect upon migrations. But most had already been and Slavic expansion was after Justinianic plague (abt. 550).

    Regarding "Jutes" in England: Settlement areas are said to have been Kent and Isle of Wight with surrounding areas. The material culture of the immigrant Germanics in Kent area was the most Roman influenced among all immigrant Germanics. If it would have been Juteland Jutes they would - in contrary - have been the most remote to Roman culture Germanics among the immigrants. This strongly suggests it was about the Eotas, a small Germanic tribe who long had lived in proximity to the Rhine mouth. If they in turn have anything with Juteland Jutes to do is not known. However, it can be ruled out, the "Jutes" settling in Kent came (directly) from Juteland.
    Archeologist state otherwise, Jutes played a part in Friesland and Kent:

    For Kent, where a significant cluster of 5th- and 6th-cen- tury Scandinavian-type ornaments have been found, the Jutish origin of the royal family is reflected in the choice of Hengist – a heroic war leader of the Jutes – as its founder (Yorke 2005, 15; 26). Within Kent some place names with a religious significance may point to the sites of sanctuaries where Odin and other Scandinavian deities were worshipped: Woodnesborough (‘Wodan’s hill’), Thunoresblæw, on the Isle of Thanet (‘Thor’s hill’), and Wye (‘altar’), of which the first and the last were situated near the royal villas at Eastry and Wye (Behr 1994, 157; 163–165). Moreover, at the cemetery of Finglesham (Pengels-ham: ‘prince’s manor’) a gilded bronze buckle from the late 6th or early decades of the 7th century was found, showing on the front a ‘naked spear dancer’ who wears a helmet with horns terminating in birds’ heads (grave 95; Chadwick Hawkes/Grainger 2006, 80 fig. 2.102). Another grave contained a 7th-century bronze pendant on which a similar helmet is depicted in a more stylized way (grave 138; Chadwick Hawkes/Grainger 2006, 100 fig. 2.117).
    Unfortunately, there is no surviving origin myth or gene- alogy for the royal families that ruled contemporary king- doms along the Dutch and German North Sea coast. Yet a metal detector find from a landing place along a tributary of the Weser, at Elsfleth-Hogenkamp, supports the idea that the worship of Odin was important in the Dutch-German coastal area as well (Mückenberger 2013). Among the early medieval metal finds is an early 6th-century, silver-gilt tongue of a buckle of Frankish type (Fig. 7). The mushroom-shaped part of the tongue is decorated with a bearded head in niello. Close examination showed that the niello fill of the right eye, which is missing, was removed on purpose. It is likely that the imported buckle originally showed an early image of Christ; this was transformed into an image of Odin by removing one of the eye-fills.
    Returning to the Scandinavian-type ornaments from Friesland, their symbolism should most probably be inter- preted in a similar way: the man-between-animals on the brooches is Odin with his helping spirits; the birds and horses/wolves on the gold bracteates, and probably the human ear, symbolize Odin’s ability to communicate with animals and represent his helping spirits; and the man-ani- mal hybrids on two of the bracteates show Odin in the act of transforming into an animal. The suggestion that not Odin but a king is depicted can be rejected: the brooches and later bracteates especially show a formalized image with no indi- vidual features that might refer to a specific king. Instead, the kings and their retainers (or indeed their wives) probably showed their sacral power and descent by wearing highly symbolic items that symbolized a true or fictional link with Scandinavia – and especially with Odin.
    In the Merovingian Period, however, the ‘Odin message’ seems to have lost its significance outside Scandinavia. In the southern North Sea area, the Wijnaldum brooch, the Sutton Hoo purse and the Faversham buckle are some of the latest pieces of jewellery with a clear reference to Odin; later brooches and other Style II ornaments show a more debased design, indicating that after the early decades of the 7th cen- tury Scandinavian-type mythical scenes were no longer val- ued as symbolic themes. Interestingly, the much older square- headed brooch from Hallum also shows a strongly debased design, as do some of the contemporary gold bracteates from Friesland and Britain (Pesch 2007: the bracteates assigned to Bastardgruppen). This is a clear indication that the Old Norse mythology was especially relevant at the level of the upper elite – such as members of the royal family and their closest retinue. Lower down the social scale, the animal motifs had a different meaning. To members of the regional and local elites, who received the gold bracteates and silver brooches as gifts and probably copied such status symbols in bronze, it was not their mythical themes but their visualization of the personal bond with a patron that would have been most rele- vant. The symbolic language was not or not fully understood, as the deviating motifs on local copies clearly demonstrate.
    See:
    https://www.academia.edu/35420221/Od...ingian_periods

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Archeologist state otherwise, Jutes played a part in Friesland and Kent:



    See:
    https://www.academia.edu/35420221/Od...ingian_periods
    "For Kent, where a significant cluster of 5th- and 6th-cen- tury Scandinavian-type ornaments have been found, the Jutish origin of the royal family is reflected in the choice of Hengist – a heroic war leader of the Jutes – as its founder (Yorke 2005, 15; 26).":

    Odin/Wotan and Tor is nothing specific to Scandinavia, but to Germanics. Also what they call Scandinavian-type ornaments was nothing specific to Scandinavia at that time. It is also found at the Southern Shores of the North Sea.

    The "jutish origin of the royal family": OMG. This is an incredible nonsense (to be stated as known). There is NOTHING known about these things. This is nothing but the usual English desperate wish to - regarding the Germanics from abt. 450 - NOT descend from "Germans" but from anything else.

    Btw. regarding the Angles Bede expressly just SPECULATES they were from what is today the landscape Angeln between Schlei and the firth of Flensburg in Schleswig-Holstein. But actually there have been known movements of Angles around in Northern Germany (including Ostholstein, Mecklenburg, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia). There are also some - disputed - hints for Angles at the lower Rhine. All of this was obviously not known to Bede.

    Place name research (Jürgen Udolph, Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, 1994) has shown no resemblance of place names in England to Juteland, Schleswig-Holstein and actually not even notably to lower Saxony. Striking parallels in Germanic place names were instead with lower Rhine area, Flandres and Northern France. This might be regarded surprising. But it is easily explained by that (today not commonly known, but not disputed among historians) fact most part of the coast from the Rhine mouth to the Bretagne (!, then Aremorica) was settled by Germanic Saxons for more than a century. The Saxons that went to British Isles at abt. 450 in big parts came from just the other side of the English channel. Se also Gaul part of the Saxon Shore here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore

    I´d say this is not just supported by place name research but also by today found genetic extreme similarity between Flandrish/Dutch on one hand and East English (probably containing least proportion of original British) on the other hand and last but not least by Ockhams razor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

    They, who came, mainly came just from the other side of the street (here: English Channel).

    And now we don´t just have the attraction of Brish Isles as explanation for this powerful invasion, but also the repulsing power. The time abt 440 AD and following time was the time of the powerful Frankish expansion to the coast. Who fled over the channel remained in own power and Saxon tradition and who stayed became in the long run Frankish (i. e. Dutch/Flamands). Just Frisians remained "unfrankish".

    This suggests Saxons and Eotas came from the Southern Shore of the Channel and the North Sea and just Angles is to me rather unclear where they came from. Again, there is no significant coincidence with place names in Angeln and in England.
    There will have come a few Saxons from Lower Saxony as well as Frisians too.

    Finally regarding Juteland Jutes: They are regarded a West Germanic tribe rather than a North Germanic. The invasion by the Danes, who came from the Danisch Isles and Southern Scandinavia (Skaane, Blekinge, both today Sweden) first made Juteland North Germanic. So any "Scandinavian" finding in England is no argument for the West Germanic Juteland Jutes. If it in fact is not (specific) "Scandinavian" - what I do think about most things found in England -, but in General North Sea Germanic it is also no exclusive ground to assume Juteland Jutes.

    (The similarity of Sutton Hoo masks with respective masks from the Vendel era in Uppland in Sweden is known to me.)
    Last edited by rothaer; 11-26-2018 at 10:13 PM.

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    I think proto-Germanic originated in Scandinavia. Finnish is the only European language with large amounts of Proto-Germanic loanwords and even genetically Finns independently descend from Proto-Germanics (their I1 is distinct from Swedish I1 and dates back to the Iron Age).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    "For Kent, where a significant cluster of 5th- and 6th-cen- tury Scandinavian-type ornaments have been found, the Jutish origin of the royal family is reflected in the choice of Hengist – a heroic war leader of the Jutes – as its founder (Yorke 2005, 15; 26).":

    Odin/Wotan and Tor is nothing specific to Scandinavia, but to Germanics. Also what they call Scandinavian-type ornaments was nothing specific to Scandinavia at that time. It is also found at the Southern Shores of the North Sea.

    The "jutish origin of the royal family": OMG. This is an incredible nonsense (to be stated as known). There is NOTHING known about these things. This is nothing but the usual English desperate wish to - regarding the Germanics from abt. 450 - NOT descend from "Germans" but from anything else.

    Btw. regarding the Angles Bede expressly just SPECULATES they were from what is today the landscape Angeln between Schlei and the firth of Flensburg in Schleswig-Holstein. But actually there have been known movements of Angles around in Northern Germany (including Ostholstein, Mecklenburg, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia). There are also some - disputed - hints for Angles at the lower Rhine. All of this was obviously not known to Bede.

    Place name research (Jürgen Udolph, Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, 1994) has shown no resemblance of place names in England to Juteland, Schleswig-Holstein and actually not even notably to lower Saxony. Striking parallels in Germanic place names were instead with lower Rhine area, Flandres and Northern France. This might be regarded surprising. But it is easily explained by that (today not commonly known, but not disputed among historians) fact most part of the coast from the Rhine mouth to the Bretagne (!, then Aremorica) was settled by Germanic Saxons for more than a century. The Saxons that went to British Isles at abt. 450 in big parts came from just the other side of the English channel. Se also Gaul part of the Saxon Shore here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore

    I´d say this is not just supported by place name research but also by today found genetic extreme similarity between Flandrish/Dutch on one hand and East English (probably containing least proportion of original British) on the other hand and last but not least by Ockhams razor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

    They, who came, mainly came just from the other side of the street (here: English Channel).

    And now we don´t just have the attraction of Brish Isles as explanation for this powerful invasion, but also the repulsing power. The time abt 440 AD and following time was the time of the powerful Frankish expansion to the coast. Who fled over the channel remained in own power and Saxon tradition and who stayed became in the long run Frankish (i. e. Dutch/Flamands). Just Frisians remained "unfrankish".

    This suggests Saxons and Eotas came from the Southern Shore of the Channel and the North Sea and just Angles is to me rather unclear where they came from. Again, there is no significant coincidence with place names in Angeln and in England.
    There will have come a few Saxons from Lower Saxony as well as Frisians too.

    Finally regarding Juteland Jutes: They are regarded a West Germanic tribe rather than a North Germanic. The invasion by the Danes, who came from the Danisch Isles and Southern Scandinavia (Skaane, Blekinge, both today Sweden) first made Juteland North Germanic. So any "Scandinavian" finding in England is no argument for the West Germanic Juteland Jutes. If it in fact is not (specific) "Scandinavian" - what I do think about most things found in England -, but in General North Sea Germanic it is also no exclusive ground to assume Juteland Jutes.

    (The similarity of Sutton Hoo masks with respective masks from the Vendel era in Uppland in Sweden is known to me.)
    I'm not entirely clear what you're saying, but I don't think it's disputed that the people of Angeln and its surrounds gave their name to England because of their settlement and that there are parallel archaeological finds in both regions. Bede raised the Angle origin of course, while Procopius also mentioned the Angeloi in Britain. Saxo too cites Angul (and Dan) in this context. Place names change, material artefacts left in the ground don't. Much of the cremation pottery of Angeln and Fyn is similar in style to the earliest Anglian types in England.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes the first were the Saxon (Chauci), this is the second wave consisting of Jutes and Norwegians!
    On the Scandinavian connection, I just took a look back at Myres and his Anglo-Saxon Pottery and the Settlement of England. This is interesting regarding similarities between England, Norway and Sweden:
    "The comparative rarity of the elaborately stamped wares characteristic of sixth-century English ceramics remains a puzzling feature of the Anglo-Saxon homelands on the Continent. This is all the more so, because some other parts of the Germanic world, whose connections with Britain might be supposed far less close, do show a similar fondness for the use of stamped pottery in the century between 550 and 650. This is especially true of some parts of Scandinavia on the one side and of central and southern Germany on the other. The stamped pottery of Norway comes mainly from the eastern side of the country, and, since associated finds rarely occur, can be dated only on typological grounds. While it mostly displays horizontal or biconical schemes of decoration, there is at least one globular piece from Brunlanes which has, below two horizontal stamped zones, large pendent triangles filled with stamps in exactly the English manner. In Sweden ... there is at least one piece from Gotland with a more elaborate design including small stamped pendent triangles."
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    "For Kent, where a significant cluster of 5th- and 6th-cen- tury Scandinavian-type ornaments have been found, the Jutish origin of the royal family is reflected in the choice of Hengist – a heroic war leader of the Jutes – as its founder (Yorke 2005, 15; 26).":

    Odin/Wotan and Tor is nothing specific to Scandinavia, but to Germanics. Also what they call Scandinavian-type ornaments was nothing specific to Scandinavia at that time. It is also found at the Southern Shores of the North Sea.

    The "jutish origin of the royal family": OMG. This is an incredible nonsense (to be stated as known). There is NOTHING known about these things. This is nothing but the usual English desperate wish to - regarding the Germanics from abt. 450 - NOT descend from "Germans" but from anything else.

    Btw. regarding the Angles Bede expressly just SPECULATES they were from what is today the landscape Angeln between Schlei and the firth of Flensburg in Schleswig-Holstein. But actually there have been known movements of Angles around in Northern Germany (including Ostholstein, Mecklenburg, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia). There are also some - disputed - hints for Angles at the lower Rhine. All of this was obviously not known to Bede.

    Place name research (Jürgen Udolph, Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, 1994) has shown no resemblance of place names in England to Juteland, Schleswig-Holstein and actually not even notably to lower Saxony. Striking parallels in Germanic place names were instead with lower Rhine area, Flandres and Northern France. This might be regarded surprising. But it is easily explained by that (today not commonly known, but not disputed among historians) fact most part of the coast from the Rhine mouth to the Bretagne (!, then Aremorica) was settled by Germanic Saxons for more than a century. The Saxons that went to British Isles at abt. 450 in big parts came from just the other side of the English channel. Se also Gaul part of the Saxon Shore here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore

    I´d say this is not just supported by place name research but also by today found genetic extreme similarity between Flandrish/Dutch on one hand and East English (probably containing least proportion of original British) on the other hand and last but not least by Ockhams razor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

    They, who came, mainly came just from the other side of the street (here: English Channel).

    And now we don´t just have the attraction of Brish Isles as explanation for this powerful invasion, but also the repulsing power. The time abt 440 AD and following time was the time of the powerful Frankish expansion to the coast. Who fled over the channel remained in own power and Saxon tradition and who stayed became in the long run Frankish (i. e. Dutch/Flamands). Just Frisians remained "unfrankish".

    This suggests Saxons and Eotas came from the Southern Shore of the Channel and the North Sea and just Angles is to me rather unclear where they came from. Again, there is no significant coincidence with place names in Angeln and in England.
    There will have come a few Saxons from Lower Saxony as well as Frisians too.

    Finally regarding Juteland Jutes: They are regarded a West Germanic tribe rather than a North Germanic. The invasion by the Danes, who came from the Danisch Isles and Southern Scandinavia (Skaane, Blekinge, both today Sweden) first made Juteland North Germanic. So any "Scandinavian" finding in England is no argument for the West Germanic Juteland Jutes. If it in fact is not (specific) "Scandinavian" - what I do think about most things found in England -, but in General North Sea Germanic it is also no exclusive ground to assume Juteland Jutes.

    (The similarity of Sutton Hoo masks with respective masks from the Vendel era in Uppland in Sweden is known to me.)
    Short reaction:

    1. The Jutish influence in Friesland and Kent is based on findings of brooches and bracteate etc. in Jutish style all dated in the sixth century AD. Also some trace from Norway.

    2. The Odin cult was before the influence of the Nordics unknown along the southern North Sea.

    3. The Anglo Saxon stream to the North Dutch consisted of two streams. The fiirst stream was a Saxon one, or better said a Chauci one. The Chauci already had strongholds at the end of the Roman time in Groningen and Drenthe, the most NE part of the North Dutch area. The second one, somewhat later, was Nordic: Jutish and Norwegian.

    4. The old Frisians (the most Western part of the North Dutch) of the Roman time left the place in the fourth century. The new Frisians were largely incoming Saxons and Nordics (last one probably elite migration).
    Last edited by Finn; 11-27-2018 at 10:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Short reaction:

    1. The Jutish influence in Friesland and Kent is based on findings of brooches and bracteate in Jutish style all dated in the sixth century AD. Also some trace from Norway.

    2. The Odin cult was before the influence of the Nordics unknown along the southern North Sea.

    3. The Anglo Saxon stream to the North Dutch consisted of two streams. The fiirst stream was a Saxon one, or better said a Chauci one. The Chauci already had strongholds at the end of the Roman time in Groningen and Drenthe, the most NE part of the North Dutch area.

    4. The old Frisians (the most Western part of the North Dutch) of the Roman time left the place in the fourth century. The new Frisians were largely incoming Saxons and Nordics (last one probably elite migration).
    Hi Finn. Do you have any concrete examples of Norwegian artefacts mentioned in your point 1? The cruciform brooches that I've seen in Oslo couldn't be mistaken for English ones but I'm sure I'm missing something elsewhere in the record... Artefacts from Norway featuring Salin's Style One could be English, but then that applies to the whole of the sixth century Germanic world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Hi Finn. Do you have any concrete examples of Norwegian artefacts mentioned in your point 1? The cruciform brooches that I've seen in Oslo couldn't be mistaken for English ones but I'm sure I'm missing something elsewhere in the record... Artefacts from Norway featuring Salin's Style One could be English, but then that applies to the whole of the sixth century Germanic world.
    Little bit in a hurry, but this is a first one:
    https://www.lc.nl/friesland/Zeldzame...-21218950.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Little bit in a hurry, but this is a first one:
    https://www.lc.nl/friesland/Zeldzame...-21218950.html
    Thanks. It certainly looks Scandinavian with its pronounced bow carrying a semi-disc. Any more examples would be appreciated when you have time.
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